Here's SHORTY!! pics

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deerslayer303

New member
I picked up my Cabela's .58cal Hawken Carbine this morning! Couple of questions. This was a consignment rifle, so I didn't get any paperwork. I went to Investarms website and looked at the manual. The show a .560 round ball and a max of 110grs of FFg. But no patch info. Any Ideas of a patch size? And I hope I can even find .560 round ball, all I have seen is .575. And from the pic, is that a nipple for a musket cap? Sure looks to big for a #11. I'm gonna try round ball and Maxi ball out of it. What size maxi ball also?
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This thing should be a blast to shoot! And I'll bet it will knock the snot out of a whitetail.
 
That thing looks impressive! I think you can forget having to track anything you shoot with that. It ain't gonna run, but it might slide a few feet, directly away from you. ;)
 
I'll bet that nipple is for musket caps. You can swap it out for a #11 nipple.

If you can find that .560 rb, I'd try .020" patches with your fav lube. Look at track of the wolf website, they have a large selection of ML ammo and molds.
 
I didn't see a .560 ball. Track of the Wolf and Midwayusa have .570 balls.


I'm trying to learn about the .58 cal things, because now I want one too! That thing looks awesome. :cool:
 
I will second dlbarr in changing the nipple to use #11 caps.
I don't believe there is a quality musket cap on the market.
What I mean by this is a foil backed cap like the #11's.
 
On mine I put a musket cap nipple so I can use the same cap for all 4 of the .58 cals. I happen to have several tins of the musket caps from a few years ago. The bore size on those Hawkens is the largest of all my other .58s so a .570 ball might be just right and the .560 be a little small.
 
Try a .010" patch with the .570s....or maybe .012-.015". If you have a micrometer, you can take it to your local fabric store and get a few different sizes of cotton material and see which one does best for you.
 
deerslayer, that's awesome.

Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16", would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp? :confused:
 
Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16", would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?
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Ya know, I've often wondered the same thing?
 
I don't really think I would want one shorter than this one. I'm itching to shoot it and see just what its all about. This black powder thing is WORSE THAN DRUGS!!!

HellGate, can you post up some of your load data for your .58's. I think I will start at 90grs a .570 ball and a .010 patch.
 
If indeed it is 58 caliber. 575 ball would require nothing more that a .10 ths size patch. 570 ball would require a patch 15-18-ths and would also require trying each patch with many different Charges for best accuracy. Thompson Center did make at one time a 56 caliber smooth bore Renegade. It was kind of a dual purpose rifle being a shotgun if need be? and a smooth bore rifle too. Using a 56 caliber ball would be to small to use in a 58 caliber barrel I would think? I don't suggest doing so. I've never tried myself. As I do have a 58 caliber T/C Big Bore Renegade myself. And remember the 58 caliber rifled barrel was designed to use a #11 Cap not a musket cap. Musket caps were intended for musket rifles. Some guys changed out their #11 nipples to a muskets nipple in hoping to get a better/hotter ignition. But, doing so it really isn't necessary if your using the correct powder designed for this specific caliber (2-FF Gorex Black Powder or Pyrodex RS ) would be preferred. Good luck,:)

P.Script: Don't expect this short barreled weapon to be a long distance game getter. Be happy to hit a 5" target consistently at 40 yards if your able too.;)
 
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Regarding ball size & patch thickness, within reason any number of combinations has potential to work well. If you want to shoot a .560 rb from a .58 cal, simply use a thicker patch. This combination, if it shoots well from your firearm, also has the added advantage of likely being much easier to load as the patch will "fill in" the rifling grooves. As an example, my .54 loads much easier with a .520 rb & .020 patch than it does using a .530 & .010 patch. The accuracy results are very comparable.

I know a number of guys who prefer a smaller ball/thicker patch combination for the above reasons. BTW, you might want to check the Muzzleloader Mag forum....there are lots of threads of this type over there.
 
"Just curious ... if one were to cut down a black powder rifle shorter than 16 inches would it be classified as a SBR and require a Federal Tax Stamp?"



They are not defined as a "Firearm" under federal law and thus the NFA does not apply to it.

Witness the Howdah Pistols being offered... they are essentially sawed off shotguns, but being muzzle loaded are exempt from the NFA.


Willie


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INQUIRY

Why a musket nipple TRY IT U MAY LIKE IT

bore or breech need scraped

does something need drilled out

whats the use of smaller ball and larger patch id stick w 575 rb or r e a l or improved minnie
 
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I don't know why it has a musket nipple on it. I think it was just the PO's preference, the bore breech and flash hole / clean out on this thing is absolutely perfect and clean. When I got it I ran a patch down it and it came out clean, then peering down it with a bore light its perfect, I'll get a stainless nipple for it.
 
deerslayer, I've been told that musket caps are significantly hotter than #11s. I actually put one on my T/C and it worked fine...I can't say that it performed any better than the standard nipple & #11 caps, however. I just wanted to give it a try. I suspect that's what the other guy did who owned your gun before you.
 
Deerslayer,
The following loads are not recommended. They did not blow my guns up. YMMV. The Zouave has taken two deer (one lengthwise on the diagonal, minie exited). The Musketoon penetrated a cow elk broadside, she dropped. I would suggest you try the musket nipple before replacing it unless you have no access to decent musket caps then go with the #11s. All my 58s have the musket nipple. The big caps are easier to find and put on in cold weather. I have not worked up a match load. All my loads were for hunting deer or elk here in Orygun (phonetic spelling) so they are heavy recoiling. I have a slip-on shotgun recoil pad on the Musketoon as it is small like your gun. The minies are all heavy skirted for heavy loads. Thin skirted loads are better for light target loads. These loads are from my shooting notebook. Lube is 50/50 bees wax & lard rubbed into grease grooves only. Note the varying ranges and groups. All were at different times & weather not recorded. These worked for me. YMMV.

Zouave (Zoli): Lyman 575213-OS(Old Style) minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (3/4" group@50yds)

Musketoon: Lyman 577611 minie + 90grs FFFg Goex (4" group@100yds)

Buffalo Hunter (sporterized Zoli Zouave): 110gr 5FA (3F size blasting powder)+.570 ball+"Slick Load" CVA patch (one hole group 25yds)

St. Louis Hawken (Investarms) rifle: Lyman 575213-OS minie+90grs FFg Goex (1.5" group@50yds)
Lyman 577611 minie+ 100gr FFg (3/4" group@50yds)
LEE R.E.A.L. 90grs 5FA (all touching@25yds)
LEE R.E.A.L. 100grs 5FA (all touching@25yds)
 
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I don't really think I would want one shorter than this one. I'm itching to shoot it and see just what its all about. This black powder thing is WORSE THAN DRUGS!!!
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you will find no intervention here!:D

very nice buy!
 
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