Help with 38 Special Load with Bullseye

R

RickCoop

New member
I am just starting to load 38 Special and would like some input from the members of this forum. I am loading a 158gr Xtreme copper coated RNFP. Xtreme says that their bullets can be loaded at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. I have consulted the Lyman 49th but it doesn't have jacketed load data for Bullseye so I am looking in the "one book one caliber" reloading manual. The Sierra jacketed bullets start at 3.4 gr with max load at 4.9 gr.(pg. 15) The Hornaday 158 gr HP-XTP is about the same with a max load at 4.5 gr. (pg.5) The 2014 Alliant Reloaders Guide only has data for 158 gr Speer LSWC with a max charge of 3.4gr.
Bottom line, I have 20 rounds of Bullseye loaded at 4.1 gr. for what I hope will produce between 700 and 800 FPS and not blow up my gun. Is this a safe load??? Input here from 38 Special, Bullseye users would be GREATLY appreciated.
 
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I have 4 books here that show that load to be within spec. Two of them show 4.1 gr as the max load.
Shouldn't blow anything up, but you didn't mention what sort of gun you are shooting.
 
My Lyman 49th says that for a lead 158, Bullseye 3.0 +786 and 3.4 (max) = 855.
for what I hope will produce between 700 and 800 FPS
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With 4.1 gr, I cannot guess what the velocity will be, but with 3.4 giving 855, I would bet it will be a good bit over 900.
 
Copper creates more drag/friction than lubed lead. A light powder charge with a 158 gr jacketed bullet may not clear the muzzle.
 
I have shot several lbs. of bullseye powder in a 38 sp., but 3.6 gr. behind a 158 gr. cast bullet is the heaviest I have ever loaded. I definitely would not start with 4.1 gr. behind a jacketed bullet, start with 3 gr. and work up 1/10 gr. at a time watching for pressure signs.
 
What what you going to shoot them in? If it's a .357 it's kind of a moot point...
My guess would be that they are in the 38 +P range at worst. Probably not going to blow up any 38 special and 20 rounds isn't very many anyways.
If Hornady and Speer have loads that much higher it would appear that the charge isn't going to blow up any gun.
 
Loaded at that level, they are indeed "+P" loads.....relatively hot ones, at that. As long as the revolver used to fire them will handle (at least) +P ammo, they will be safe - but at the upper limit, more or less. But, they will probably sting. I would not advise loading any more like that. 3.5 to 3.7 grains of Bullseye, under any 158 grain bullet, usually gives great accuracy....and is about as hot as ever needed (for general shooting purposes, that is). Sources vary on the actual threshold for this , but +P probably begins around 3.7 or 3.8 grains (with that bullet weight). A light target load, which tends to be very accurate, is about 3.1 grains, with a 158 grain bullet.

I load my 38 target ammo to 3.5 grains.....and my self defense 38 to 3.8 grains, when using 158 grain bullets (and Bullseye).

Be careful about published sources (and doubly so about internet sources), regarding maximum loads for the 38 special. The data tends to be all over the place, so take all of it with a grain of salt. It is ALWAYS best to err on the side of caution. So, start relatively low and work up.
 
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I was planning to shoot these in my old S&W model 10. If, however these are actually in +P or +P+ range, I guess maybe they can be shot out of a GP100?
 
load data can be vexing if you look at it too hard. let's first understand WHY extreme bullets recommends a certain point in the load data. They make, i recall, around two dozen different calibers that vary greatly in the velocities and pressures they are being pushed. obviously the mid load data for .380ACP isnt going to be anywhere close to even the starting load on a 357mag, but they are made of the exact same materials and built with the same process. they are stating mid data for cast because they offer a great many different calibers with huge differences in velocities. they have looked over the speeds of ALL the different bullets load data and found that the range specified will meet the criteria for keeping the bullets under a certain speed no matter what your loading. There is NO published load data that will exceed extreme bullet's recommended maximum velocity when dealing with 38spl and a 158gr slug. they just needed a simple blanket statement to give the non detail oriented customers a safe starting place to work-up their loads. You can run any load you see published with a proper work-up from minimum, jacketed or not, and you won't break the plating. more important in your case is the crimp which can slice a clean circle through your plating allowing the two sides to separate. i personally prefer a taper crimp only or a modified taper-crimp like the Lee pistol FCD. roll crimps can be fine to, just take it easy and do only as needed to prevent jump.

good luck. extreme bullets little hollow-point are indeed some accurate target bullets, always pleased with them.
 
3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 158 grain cast bullet is a good .38 Special load.

I don't think I've ever loaded jacketed bullets in a .38, if I did they would be 125's.
 
I use Bulseye for my .38 Special loads. I use a 158 Grain SWC bullet and 3.6 grains. I have loaded as high as 4.0 which worked fine but got my barrel very dirty. I have found the 3.6 to work best.
 
I have shot several lbs. of bullseye powder in a 38 sp., but 3.6 gr. behind a 158 gr. cast bullet is the heaviest I have ever loaded. I definitely would not start with 4.1 gr. behind a jacketed bullet, start with 3 gr. and work up 1/10 gr. at a time watching for pressure signs
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Jacketed bullets take more powder than lead, not less.
 
Based upon Hornady 9th as a reference for jacketed 158 gr, your 4.1 should be fine and be in the ballpark for your 800 fps. Their max is 4.5. I would stop loading and wait until you shoot some test rounds. If it were me, yeah, I would use the GP100 when even slightly in doubt.
 
Jacketed bullets take more powder than lead, not less.
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If two bullets are the same weight:

Lead is 'slicker' than copper jacketed, and (generally) takes less powder to achieve the same muzzle velocity...

However, jacketed (generally) will run at higher pressures than lead due to more friction and being harder to engrave the rifling...

I was always taught that lead can be run (safely) using jacketed data, but not vice versa...
 
Salmoneye is exactly correct, except in one tiny detail (which is not really of practical concern, but I'll explain it here, just to be technically correct).

Lead, when measuring friction against steel, actually has a HIGHER coefficient of friction than copper against steel. However, the LUBE used on cast lead bullets (whatever type used) always changes this so that the lubed lead bullets have a lower coefficient of friction.

So, given that cast lead bullets are ALWAYS shot lubed....in a practical sense, Salmoneye's statement is correct.

A related factor is that cast lead bullets always have a lower yield strength than copper jacketed ones, so it requires less energy to deform them, to take the rifling. So, a given load with a cast lead bullets will produce higher velocity and lower pressure, when compared to the same load using an identical bullet, but jacketed.

PLATED bullets fall somewhere in between. The thin copper plating (much thinner than a conventional copper jacket) still produces greater friction in the barrel, as compared to a LUBED cast lead bullet, but are softer and thus take the rifling more like a naked cast bullet. This is why it is recommended to load PLATED bullets no hotter than cast ones.
 
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<snip>PLATED bullets fall somewhere in between. The thin copper plating (much thinner than a conventional copper jacket) still produces greater friction in the barrel, as compared to a LUBED cast lead bullet, but are softer and thus take the rifling more like a naked cast bullet. This is why it is recommended to load PLATED bullets no hotter than cast ones.
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I don't believe it is just velocity differences but pressure differences, when lead obturates and seals the barrel. Other than controlling barrel leading and sonic booms I don't believe there is any other reason to run lead slower than jacketed. Achieving a certain velocity is just a means to an end, more readily measured than pressure.
 
Lots of good posts so far. It's refreshing to see that most understand that plated bullets behave much like jacketed, from a barrel friction standpoint. That's important to know. Plated is not lead.

Xtreme says that their bullets can be loaded at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities.
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Correct. They state "mid range jacketed" because they can't be driven has hard as a true jacketed bullet without breaking down. In the case of 38 Special - assuming you will stay within published velocities/pressures - the high end is not a concern. You can load a plated 38 Special round just as hot as a jacketed. Now when you get into more potent chamberings, like 357/44 Mag, 10mm, etc., then the story changes. But for this discussion the structural limitations of plated are a non-issue.

Then they say "or higher end lead velocities" because of the barrel friction factor which has already been covered. There is a concern that if you load a plated bullet to the lower end of lead data, you run the very real risk of getting a stuck bullet. With 38 Special, this is the bigger concern; rather than plating breakdown on the high end.

Bottom line, I have 20 rounds of Bullseye loaded at 4.1 gr. for what I hope will produce between 700 and 800 FPS and not blow up my gun. Is this a safe load??? Input here from 38 Special, Bullseye users would be GREATLY appreciated.
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It's a safe to shoot round - assuming you loaded them correctly, accurately, and as you stated.

I load and shoot a lot of 38 Special - more than any other chambering. So I looked through my chronograph data and have not loaded/tested your specific recipe. But I have more than enough "peripheral" data to know that you're right in the ballpark. As already stated, the smart path is to shoot your 20 rounds before loading any more. There's more than just safety here. You also want to know if it's right for your specific purpose (which you didn't state; only the desired velocity). One step at a time. Good handloaders are a patient lot ;).

(The reason I didn't have specific data regarding your recipe is that I generally reserve my Bullseye for lead bullets. When I load plated, I use a cleaner running propellant - thought process being, since plated bullets are much cleaner (no smokey lube), might as well run a cleaner propellant as well. But that's just me and my loading style. *Sorry for the topic drift.*)
 
.38 Spl. Loads

My go to load for cast .38 Spl. rounds is 3.5 grains of Bullseys under a 150 grain old original Lee mold.I shoot range lead and wheel weights 50/50 mixed,with a hint of tin added in for better mold fill out.I shoot thousands of them all summer in my Ruger Black hawk, and Sp101.That 50/50 mixture gives me some but not bad leading . hdbiker
 
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