Help on Self-defense loads, and gun suggestions

S

Socrates

Moderator
Hi
I'm rethinking how I approach Self-defense shooting and loads, and, I need some suggestions, and comments.

First off I'm not LEO, and, it's highly unlikely I'll ever get into a shooting where over penetration is an issue.
Everytime I've been attacked, the guys were over 220 pounds, huge, and well muscled. Due to this experience, and my age, I'm thinking that 20-25 inches of penetration, in gello, is what I'm after. I want an entrance and exit hole, going through what ever is inbetween. Now, that puts me in sort of a little researched area. All the gello tests are pretty much done on HP's, and, they all pretty much are half the penetration I'm after.
I must also confess to being really concerned about this case:
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html

If the guy takes 22 COM hits, and, chances are with my self-defense guns that's all I could expect to hit as well, I think it would be better if he had 44 holes, vs. 22, to help bleed out faster.

So that said, let's look at the guns, possible changes there, and, the ammunition.

First is my S&@ 360 PD:
DSC_0042360PDclearasbell8x6.jpg


To be real, I can't really hit anything smaller then a 10" plate at 15 yards with the gun, so, head shots are out.
If I had to use it, COM would be my target, and, again, I've only got 5 shots, so I want full penetration, two holes.
Currently I have it loaded with Fioochi 148 grain SJHP, at 1131 fps out of the gun. My other alternative is 864 fps 125 grain FMJ in .38 special. The Fioochi I'm not really sure how far it would penetrate...
My guess is over 15". The FMJ will penetrate far enough, but, it's not famous for doing much damage going through.

Trying to find something I can shoot out of the gun that penetrates over 15"...

Next is the Kahr PM 9. It's currently got 147 Grain HST in it. I've found it penetrates between 12-14" and, that doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies. Anyone have some either flat point, or ball ammo they recommend? I'm actually considering trading this one in, and, moving up to a Dan Wesson .45 Bobtail...
pm9gunscan.jpg


Or, considering the Kahr in 45 ACP, with Ball or flat point ammo.
This gun is accurate, but, it's hard to shoot in combat scenario this accurately:
KAHRPM911YARDSSILVERBEARjpgcopy.jpg


Comments? HELP?

S
 
Pleeeeease tell me those are snap caps in that Smith.

Penetration is going to be more difficult out of a 1-7/8" barrel.

I like your idea of going with a Dan Wesson .45acp, but then again, 1911's are my weakness.
 
What's wrong with 38Sp and 9mm?

Socrates,

Hey, you have some really great tools for personal defense.

If I had a 360PD, you have your choice of the following loads:
1. Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 38 Special +P 135 Grain​
2. Federal 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter, 38 Special +P​

I personally believe the Gold Dot is the best round for this gun. Some still believe the old "FBI" load is the best. Whatever floats your boat. I don't think either would let you down. I'm nearly 280 lbs, and believe me, I wouldn't want to get shot with either of these.

The Kahr PM9 is also a great carry weapon. The 147 Grain HST 9mm both in standard and +P pressures expand to a 8 tenths of inch! That's huge. You don't want or need penetration like the kind you're talking about. The military has an entirely different set of needs. They need to shoot through barriers (so do cops), and often times, they need fmj to accomplish that. I personally feel FMJ can endanger people unnecessarily, since it doesn't matter whether you get good hits or not, the rounds can go on and hit other innocent people. My personal ethics don't allow me to ignore an innocent persons right to exist simply because I am being threatened. We must be diligent in using lethal force in a way that focuses the lethality toward the aggressor. Minimizing the possible harm to others, and maximizing the energy being "dumped" into the target.
 
Well, Buffalo Bore claims that you should expect 24+" of penetration from their FMJ 357sig and it's rated at 575ft/lbs from a 4 inch barrel. That's tough to beat and would be my choice if I were in your shoes.

They're showing 1028 ft/lbs out of a 4" 41mag with 170gr JHP. I'd guess you'd have adequate penetration there, not to mention that you'd be really close to actual "knock down power" at those numbers, meaning actual damage from the temporary cavity/shock wave. This would be super if you can control the thing.
 
OK, some of this depends on how much recoil you want to deal with.

I would go with the wheelgun, based on a few issues...first of all, I can think of a couple of loads that will do exactly what you want.

Buffalo Bore has a really neat load involving a full wadcutter 150gr loaded as hot as you can get in standard-pressure 38Spl. This will be very controllable in that gun and has been tested to 23" in gel:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo...r standard pressure Hard Cast Wad Cutter.html

That is BY FAR the most controllable load you can get that will produce the results you want, period, end of discussion. With a big flat nose of caliber bore, it will also do a lot of hurt along it's path.

(Note that most 38Spl full wadcutters like this are loaded to "target shooting pressures" and run as low as 650fps, never more than 750 or so. Even at those speeds the target wadcutters have a decent rep as defense loads for "granny recoil" situations; Buffalo Bore heated this type of round up significantly.)

The only way you're going to improve on that in the effectiveness department (with factory ammo) is to jump way up in recoil into the 357Mag full-house heavy hunting hardcast loads by Grizzly Ammo or Buffalo Bore if you want REALLY hot stuff, or slightly less hot but similar stuff by Federal or Cor-Bon. These range from 160gr to 200gr and can deliver a hell of a thump. They will almost ALWAYS exit a goblin's torso and will have a lot of heat left over after that so I have to strongly recommend against them in an urban environment.

If you handload, there's a really cool alternative. Penn Bullets has a "giant wadcutter from hell" 230gr slug that works best loaded to about 1,000fps. It's softcast, has a big flat nose and will seriously penetrate! I've been considering handloading just so I can whip up some of these, they would actually be a very low-end 357 load recoil wise and wouldn't involve any edgy pressures, so they'd be well within what a novice handloader could brew up.

What else...you might also consider the Hornady XTP in one of the heavier weights in 357 (158gr or more). This is a "deep punch" jacketed hollowpoint really meant for hunting. It has a thick brass jacket and doesn't expand as fat as, say, a Speer Gold Dot or other conventional personal defense JHPs. Expansion is also delayed to give a deeper punch. As one example, in 44Mag the XTP is one of the few expanding loads that has any cred as a bear defense load, due to it's abnormally deep punch. In 357, it should deliver what you want in a defense round.

In 9mm, about the only way to come close to any of these (including the "lowly" 38Spl round mentioned above) is to take a good hot 9mm+P factory hollowpoint in 147gr weight and fill in the hollowpoint cavity with some epoxy (I highly recommend something non-toxic!!!). That will get you a thumper of a load, although I'd put the BuffBore 150gr full wadcutter ahead of it.
 
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I'm thinking that 20-25 inches of penetration, in gello, is what I'm after. I want an entrance and exit hole
Click to expand...

I like the .44 Magnum with the 300 grain XTP. It expands to .70+ and gets 20+ inches of penetration in gelatin tests.

Now I'll use my favorite gun cliche, it contains references to shot placement and the value of perforation.

Getting shot in the abdomen is bad, having your heart blown out the back of your spine is a... censored (hint: rhymes with witch).
 
Pleeeeease tell me those are snap caps in that Smith.
Click to expand...
Yes they are snap caps. I might go with the DW if the guy bites on trading the Kahr back.
1. Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 38 Special +P 135 Grain

2. Federal 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter, 38 Special +P

I personally believe the Gold Dot is the best round for this gun. Some still believe the old "FBI" load is the best. Whatever floats your boat. I don't think either would let you down. I'm nearly 280 lbs, and believe me, I wouldn't want to get shot with either of these.

The Kahr PM9 is also a great carry weapon. The 147 Grain HST 9mm both in standard and +P pressures expand to a 8 tenths of inch! That's huge. You don't want or need penetration like the kind you're talking about. The military has an entirely different set of needs. They need to shoot through barriers (so do cops), and often times, they need fmj to accomplish that. I personally feel FMJ can endanger people unnecessarily, since it doesn't matter whether you get good hits or not, the rounds can go on and hit other innocent people. My personal ethics don't allow me to ignore an innocent persons right to exist simply because I am being threatened. We must be diligent in using lethal force in a way that focuses the lethality toward the aggressor. Minimizing the possible harm to others, and maximizing the energy being "dumped" into the target.
Click to expand...

SixShooter: welcome to the forum.:) I'm going to look into the Federal 158 grain Wadcutter.
My reason for wanting two holes, and what seems like excessive gello depth is that it's estimated that exiting skin requires about 4-6" of penetration in gello to make it out. In other words, the skin is elastic, and difficult to penetrate, so to exit after 14" of penetration would actually require 20" in gello.

Peetzakilla: Tim Sundles(Buffalobore) pricing is so high, his stuff is pretty close to out of the question. He's asking near a buck a round for 9mm.

It should be pretty easy to reload some .357 or .38 with
wadcutters.

Also, Double Tap has some stuff I've been looking at:
9mm+P 147gr FMJ Flat Point 50rds.http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=268
357 Magnum 158 Speer Gold Dot 50rds.
1245fps / 1 7/8" S&W:eek:http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=49

The last load maybe unshootable in my snub. The Fioochi, at 148 grains at 1131 fps is about equal to Buffalobores
158 grain plus P load, at 1040 fps in recoil, and, the other heavier ammo I used was beyond my ability to shoot, recoiling in the 40 ft lbs, and 45 fps area.

This 45 ACP load looks REAL good, as well:
.45 ACP 230gr. FMJ-FP 50rds.Ballistics : 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156

That said, I'm a bit on the cheap side, and, those ammo prices are pretty high.

Currently I'm carrying this gun:
DCM360PD_0039.jpg

with this load:
45 Super from Buffalobore:
Item No. 45S230/50 230 gr. JHP @1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.)
 
Peetzakilla: Tim Sundles(Buffalobore) pricing is so high, his stuff is pretty close to out of the question. He's asking near a buck a round for 9mm.
Click to expand...

I suppose the old "What's your life worth?" comment would be out of line? I'm just kidding! Geesh!:D;)

I know, I wouldn't pay that much either but I assume that pretty well any FMJ 357sig would do the same thing. The box of canned heat I got from Georgia Arms shows 1400fps, no barrel length listed, but at even 1200fps and 125gr, I suspect the penetration would be adequate to say the least.
 
So obviously there is some tension here between requirements - you can't have a wide hole, a deep hole, and light enough recoil to make many holes quickly, all from a CCW gun. So you'll have to compromise.

On the revolver, something like a used, 2.5-inch S&W M66 (K-Frame, ~ 32oz) will be a lot easier to control than the 360PD, and offer one more shot too. It's not a pocket gun, but fine for either a inside or outside the pants belt gun.
 
Problem is simple: that little snubby is whacking my trigger finger with 148's at 1131 fps. Whats it going to feel like with
Double Taps
357 Magnum 158 Speer Gold Dot 50rds.
1245fps / 1 7/8" S&Whttp://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...products_id=49
Recoil Energy of 27 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 48 fps.:eek:
I shoot guns with 40-60 ft-lbs of recoil, but, they rarely move over 30 fps. 48 fps is wrist breaking...

My limit with the snub is right around here: This is the Fioochi at 1131 fps, 148 grains:

Recoil Energy of 20 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 41 fps.

Or, buffalobores' 158 @ 1040 Plus P load:
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 40 fps.

I shot one round or so of Fusion, and some 'low recoil' federal .357 stuff, and, took it up and gave it to Jack, so he could use it for testing REAL .357's.

Stuff I gave him was some of this, I think it was the 158's, and 125s:
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps
Click to expand...

Same with Fusion's 158 load recoiled at:
Recoil Energy of 26 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 48 fps.
 
If you are intent on using your .357, do what I did and switch to the 180 grain Winchester Partition Gold, actually I use the 180 grain Nosler-HG over 14 grains of H-110, but it is the same bullet as the Win load.

I use it in my 2.25 - 6 inch barrels, they expand at a wide range of velocities and have a kick that is not as sharp as the lighter bullets, they also penetrate deeper, expand as well or better, and retain more weight than other .357 bullets.

mail.jpg
 
Here's a picture of my 2.5-inch 66 next to it's big brother, a 4-inch 686, for reference:

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Let's see, if I run that bullet at 1100 fps, I can handle the recoil. Recoil Energy of 21 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 42 fps. That's about the same as the Fioochi.

Or, I could run the same bullet with around 7 grains of Longshot, for the same velocity, with half the powder, and more pressure. Never used longshot. Does that 7 grains come anywhere near filling the .357 case?

Same questions about Titegroup? 5 grains, and about 1000 fps would be a joy to shoot.
Recoil Energy of 15 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 36 fps.

I haven't reloaded with anything but 4227 in a long time, so I'm not familiar with these powders. In the 80's I pretty much used a ton of H110, some unique, and some HS-6.
 
Look, if you're a real cheapskate (like me!) you'll need to handload anyways. A complete Lee handloader setup for the 357mag will run less than $50 complete - that's my next purchase.

And at that point, the Penn 230 at 900 to 1,000fps is exactly what you're looking for, cheap enough to use for plinking practice and street defense.
 
I've already got two presses, just not close. They are at Jack Huntington's shop... Dillon 650 and a Rockchucker. Works out pretty good, since I'm always forgetting something, and, he always has it... Not to mention he's forgot more about reloading then most people will ever know...

Just got done looking at the 45 230 grain flat nose. Great website. Seems like a good guy to do business with.
 
Just a thought, if this a defensive pistol then all that extra penetration from a FMJ could become dangerous for bystanders that may be in the area behind or around your attacker. Ultimately any of the common defensive loads .38, 357, 9mm, 10mm, .40 .45 in JHP should be enough to stop somebody over 220 who is not wearing body armor.
 
With a snub or any other gun,if I have to shoot a bad guy which I hope I never do,I will shoot him in the chest twice and if he keeps coming in the head the remaining three rounds.

I'm not going to die because he did'nt bleed out.
 
The real problem is with big hands, and small guns, hitting anything but COM is a REAL problem. Also, offside penetration is vastly overrated. Skin takes 4-6" of gello penetration to exit. So, all those SD loads that go 14" are going to exit only if the target is 8" thick.

That said, I've NEVER been attacked in a situation where any other people were in the background. It's ALWAYS been one where I'm isolated, which is why the attack occured.

Over Penetration is NOT an issue here...
 
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