help improving accuracy, technique?

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hologon

New member
So I've put about 300 rounds of ball through my new USP and about 200 rounds of .22LR -- make that, my first 500 rounds of ANY ammunition through ANY gun.

What I've noticed is that I started out a month ago making 5" groups at 30feet with slow, smooth shots (5-10s between shots) (I ended up at 30 feet, because 20 feet is no fun and at 50 feet I occasionally miss the silhoette), and 300 rounds later, I'm still making 5" groups at 30 feet.

Should I have improved at least somewhat in that time frame?

What are some tips and pointers to improving accuracy, technique? I'm using a Weaver (as far as I know it) which I find a lot more comfortable than isoceles.

I'm pretty sure I'm not "yanking" the trigger or punching down, because my groups are centered right around the middle of the target -- just that it's a pretty wide circle AROUND the middle! :) It doesn't look like the sight alignment is a particularly stable configuration, but I'm definitely not shaking the gun around considerably.

Is there anything I can do besides taking an expensive course from an instructor? Or am I supposed to just "magically" (intuition, practice) get better as I shoot more, even though there's really not much I'm doing but muscle-based physical memory?

I've been practicing sight-alignment and dry-firing at home, but it never seems to have the same feel.

P.S. How the HELL are professionals/experts hitting the (10) bullseye at 75 feet when I can't even SEE most of the target at that distance?! (I saw the target that comes with the new Hammerli... 1" groups at 75 ft???)

Thanks!

-Jon
 
Greetings Jon,

While it is very difficult to help without being there at the range and watching you, perhaps you will allow me to offer you a few thoughts that may be of some help.

I am just going to point out a few of the major probs that I noted when I was helping to train raw newbies to shoot. You are actually better off as the guys I trained were wanabe cops who wouldnt always listen. Your mind is at least open.

First off let's talk sight picture. One major problem a lot of people have when they first start is that they look at the wrong object at the exact time of the sear release. It is natural to want to be looking at the target, however at the point where the weapon fires your eyes shoudl be focussed on the FRONT sight.

The way I suggest doing it when starting out is simply to get a good sight picture. The best thing is to get a target with a small bullseye when aiming put the bullseye up like a pumpkin on a post. Teh post being your front sight. The smaller the bull is the better. I like to use one or 2 inch dots.

Then do the normal sight alignment focusing rear to front to target then back to the front sight just when you put enough EVEN pressure rearward on the trigger for it to release.

Breath control is extremely important in pistol and revolver shooting. In between shots take your time.. breath naturaly. Beoore you are ready to take a shot dreathe in a little deeper than normal and bring the weapon up SLIGHTLY above the target. Exhale slowly and as you exhale bring the weapon down to point right where you want it to. hold in a little over hald a breath and apply that even pressure to the trigger.

Another oft overlooked item is followthrough. What you want to do is get into a ritual. Breathing sigth picture, sight alighnment etc etc etc. A big part of that ritual is followthrough. After the pistol recoils let it come down and reaquire sight picture immediately. Do it slowly dont force it... You should find yourself in roughly the same place as before you pulled the trigger.

Another good drill is to acquire sight picture, and then close your eyes. Move your hands slightly with the eyes remaining closed and point the gun where you thingk the target is. Now open your peepers. If you are on target great! If not move your FEET a little bit and do it again. Once you open your eyes and the weapon is pointing at the bullseye or close you got it.

Finally there are two practical drills that you should consider. You'll need a helper for these.

The first is to simply balance a penny on the top of your gun. Acquire sight picture and have them put the coin on top of the weapon. If it falls you may be getting shakey from bad breathing or tiredness. (note tiredness is a killer when you are trying to make a good group. when you do find your pulse hammering or the weapon shaking either breathe again or set the weapon down for a min or two. You're not in a race).

The second drill will show you a LOT about your tendency to flinch or push or pull or yank or.. well you get the idea.

Go to the range and fire several rounds. Collect the shell casings.

If you are using a revolver have them load five rounds live and one fired in such a way that you can neither see nor hear what they are doing. Have him spin the cyl and then close it. As you fire you will come down on one 'no fire' casing. You WILL see yourself flinch or make mistakes. Have your friend watch too. This puts on a little pressure which exacerbates your problems.

Have them then vary the number of live and fired cartriges in different pattersn and numbers. the idea is for you not to know if you will fire a live round or drop the hammer on an already fired cartridge.

This can also be done with an auto but after every trigger squeeze you must hand the weapon back. He must make the smae rattling noises each time so that you cant cheat.

None of this is combat training. Start with the basics. Get the groups down tiny and then work for the combat techniques.

Oh you asked about targets and not seeing the bull at 25 yards.

Here is a trick I used. Simply get a thick black marker and draw a big ol vertical line under the target exactly in line with the bull. Line the front sight up with the vertical line and put the pumphin on the post. Readjust your sights so the bullet goes up into the bull. You wont be pointing at the bull but at the bottom of the black where the line meets the black of the target.

Yea its cheap but it works!

Good Luck!

JT

------------------
One useless man is called a disgrace, two are called a law firm, and three or more become a congress. - attributed to John Adams

Stop by my site: http://www.memorableplaces.com
 
Even though you will say you are already doing it, there are really only two things important in pistol acurracy. If only these 2 things are done, you will become a master shot.

1) Focus on the front sight only and concentrate more on keeping the front sight lined up perfectly with the rear sight. Sure it is hard to sight in on a blurry target but every time you do focus on the target, your point of impact changes. Only focus on the target for a moment before aligning the sights so you have have an idea of where you are aiming. Try this first with a blank sheet of paper and you will be amazed at how you group considering there is no point of central focus on the target. Only focus and worry about front sight alignment.

2) Pull the trigger slowly while concentrating on the sights. Any fast movement will disturb the sights alignment without giving you a chance to compensate for the movement. As you get better speed will not be an issue. You will want to pull the trigger fast but you mustn't allow excitement or anxiety cause you to rush.


It is all a game of concentration. Sight alignment and slow controlled trigger pull are the only things that matter. Start at a fairly close range and try to get all the rounds in the same lil hole . If you can't, you (and not the gun) are the problem. Once you start shooting at distances of 50yrds, 25 becomes fairly easy but you have to work up to it. Otherwise you will probably be off the paper on most rounds.

Good luck

CL
 
Everything advised by the other posts is good especially FRONTSIGHT FOCUS!!!

For simplicity sake...

Using weaver grip and stance inhale, HOLD...

Then follow these simple steps...

FRONT SIGHT!FRONT SIGHT!(FOCUS ON FRONTSIGHT)
SLACK... (TAKE SLACK OUT OF THE TRIGGER!!!)
PAUSE!
SQUEEZE!(THE TRIGGER OF COURSE)-USE THE PADDED PART OF YOUR FINGER... AND DO NOT ANTICIPATE THE FIRING OF THE WEAPON, THIS WILL ENDUCE THE JERKING OF THE TRIGGER, OFFSETTING THE WEAPON!!!

Again focus should be on the FRONTSIGHT...
your rear sight and target will be slightly out of focus... were ever your frontsight is when the weapon is fired that is were your bullet is goin.

Try it, the entire modern MIL uses it from the LOWLY grunts to the UPPER ECHOLON fighter pilots...

TRIED, TESTED, PROVED...

P.S. exhale after shooting sequence!!! The HOLDING of the breathe helps reduce ARCH movement, the natural tendency of the weapon to make a side ways FIGURE EIGHT MOVEMENT...
You cannot get rid of this movement unless your dead!!! It is a natural living response...
That is why one shoots more accurately when bracing against something (i.e. BENCHREST, HOOD OF A CAR, ETC; ETC ;)

NO MATTER HOW GOOD, EXPENSIVE, TOUGH, OR RELIABLE, YOU THINK YOUR GUN IS...
ALL OF IT IS WORTHLESS IF THE SHOOTER DOES NOT DO HIS/HER JOB...

------------------
SURE SHOT
 
Get some help from a knowledgeable person who can shoot with you. It is not possible to suggest a grip or stance without seeing how you are put together. While the Weaver Stance is time proven for combat type shooting, the Isosceles is still the stance of choice for the ultimate in accuracy. The trend today is toward a modified Isosceles and that is the stance I use.

Also, don't concern yourself too much with the accomplishments of other shooters. My brother bought a used Glock 17 and I went to the range with him. I fired half a dozen rounds at 25 yards offhand into a 4 inch circle and pronounced the pistol as satisfactory but no tack driver. He was doing good just to keep the shots on a TQ-19. OK, he is a new shooter and I have been Master Class for 20 years. Who cares? He shouldn't. He needs to be concerned with his own personal improvement and nothing else.
 
One thing you may not know about the Weaver stance. Many new shooters have seen it and copy the position very well, but what they don't know is that the key to accuracy with the Weaver is that the gun hand pushes forward toward the target, while the support hand pulls back toward the shooter. The trick is to find a good solid balance between the two hands that holds the weapon solid without tensing the muscles to the point of shaking. With a little practice, you'll be going into a good solid stance without thinking about it.
 
Something that helped me was to find the place on my trigger finger that allowed me to pull the trigger straight back without pulling the front sight left or right. It really helps when firing double action. Just one more thing to concentrate on, right?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Hey Jon,

Everybody so far has given good advice, although I don't quite agree with the weaver stuff. That's just personal opinion though.

All the advice about the front sight is right on. While working as coach/safety during qualifications, I could instantly tell who wasn't watching their front sight by the way the shot groups were dispersed.

A great way to improve accuracy is to start at 3-5 meters and shoot at 3 inch dots. Practise slow aimed fire and practise the fundamentals. If you have a consistently proper grip, then BRASS applies. Breathe, Relax, Aim (Front Sight), Slack (if any), Squeeze. I used to focus on the target and once I listened to a buddy of mine and focused on the front sight, I started shooting ragged one hole groups at 7 meters. Once you can do it at 3-5 meters, take it to 7 then 10.

Assuming a good grip, I do two things. One I breathe rythmically between shots, during slow aimed fire. Two: when I am simply working on accuracy, I say "squeeeeze" in my mind. OK, my squeeze mantra may sound stupid, but I take comfort in the fact that the US Army marksmanship team uses their own mantras. Anyways, it helps me slow down when transitioning from combat shooting to slow aimed fire.

I have a friend in the Spec Ops community who does the entire BRASS acronym in his mind while practising slow aimed fire.

Which reminds me. If all you are doing is target shooting, great, but if you are doing both combat and target shooting, do the target first then the combat.

Hope this helps,

Chuck
 
About the follow-through... Some guys squeeze the trigger and immediately relax -- that bullet is not going where the sights were looking! Followthrough means keeping the same grip on the weapon after the shot as before the shot, as well as maintaining consistent muscle tension. That will improve your consistency, hence, group size. HTH

------------------
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
 
Hey Hologun,

It may not be you, have you tried locking your gun into a bench vise and seeing what the group looks like when all motion has been removed??

If the 5" group is still being produced, then that is as accurate as the gun is, in it's present condition, probably it can be tuned by a gunsmith.

These professionals that are punching the 10 ring at 75 ft are using guns that are so modified that they bearly look like the original gun, and the target from Hammerli was probably produced by a bench vised gun.

Hope this helps,

Rich Cizik

Have fun and shoot straight.
 
Great question with excellent posts. I'm copying now as an aid to my own shooting. Sometimes this good info just slips by and we need to be reminded of what works.
Thanks all
 
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice!

I've been doing a lot of plain old "dry-sighting" (not even dry-firing) and working on sight alignment before going out to the range, and it seems to help.

Definitely the bit about adjusting my FEET rather than adjusting my wrists makes a BIG difference.

That combined with slowing down more, the BRASS acronym, breathing right, a lot of non-firing practice, and just a bit of luck have helped get my groups down a little bit.

It's a thrill to see a tighter group (10 yards, 3"... but 5" with the omnipresent flyer :( ) and improvement.

A few interesting things. The guy at the gunshop pointed out that I was squeezing the trigger _too_ slowly -- I was taking maybe 10-15s to finally "surprise-break" the trigger which meant that by the end of that time, I was shaking. Doh.

I wish ranges had BETTER LIGHTING. The odd occasional spotlight in the lanes that the range calls "lighting" makes for a bleeping hard time FINDING the center of the target. I tried it in my backyard one day on a bright day and it's a crapload easier when there's enough light to make your 3-dots bright and the target easily visible. (The range charges a premium for red targets. I wonder why. :) )

Also, I put on a Hogue Handall today and boy does that help! The gun no longer feels like it's slipping out of my hands, and makes followup shots a LOT more controllable! I guess I'm one of those who finds the Hogue handalls with the sticker rubber, finger grooves, and handswells to be a big help. (I have small-ish hands.)

Lastly, that www.bullseyepistol.com site has a link to the Army's Marksmanship manual. 94 pages of very good, detailed advice! I learned how to shift my grip a little bit, which makes the hold a great deal more comfortable. I'll be studying that one.

Thanks again to everyone here. It's a pleasure to have this resource of experienced people -- I've learnt so much already and yet I barely know/can do anything!

-Jon
 
Excellent topic, excellent feedback. Wish there were more like these :)

jth

A USP9 in the hand is better than a MP5 in the trunk...
 
Don't confuse "smooth" with "slow". When you're learning, you'll press the trigger very deliberately, which makes the process of getting the trigger to break seem slow. But if you watch someone with excellent trigger control, you'll see that he (or she) breaks the shot just a few seconds after getting the sights settled. With a smooth trigger press, there's no hesitation and the slack is being taken up during the aiming process.

One of the greatest champions of bullseye pistol competition, Bill Blankenship, used his pre-season dry fire practice to learn to break the shot cleanly (without disturbing sight alignment) as quickly as possible. He "programmed" his trigger finger and won several national championships.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top