In the processing of moving, my father and I were rumaging through the attic and came across my grandfather's military handgun. I don't claim to know much about handguns so I was hoping someone could provide some help. The little bit of investigating I have done has shown me that this is probably a Smith and Wesson Model 10 M&P Revolver. I know it is a .38 special. Aside from that, that's all I know. I would love to register the gun but unfortunately, I can't find the serial number. I searched all over and all I can come up with is a four digit number on the inside of the butt that is 1177 that I think is a manufacturing floor code. Could this be the serial number? There is no landyard ring, as a matter of fact there is no metal on the bottom of the butt for there to be a landyard ring, and it seems as though often times the serial number is printed there. This wood of the butt of this handgun wraps all of the way around the bottom. The gun is in fairly good shape, and if anyone can help me locate the serial number I would greatly appreciate it.
Help Identifying WWII S&W
- Thread starter Deano9
- Start date
Sir William
New member
I think the grips have been replaced also. Using a screwdriver that is properly fitted and flat ground, remove the gripscrew and use it as a punch to push the other side loose. Remove the grips carefully. The S/N may show up on the butt and even on all major parts. My guess is that you probably have a WWII M&P revolver in 38 Special. There could be a U.S. Property stamped into the topstrap. It should have a serrated combat trigger of narrow configuration. A safety concern is that these do NOT have a hammer safety blocking device. If loaded and dropped on the hammer, they WILL fire. If you decide to shoot it, consult a gunsmith first. 158 gr lead Cowboy Action Shooting 38 Specials are suggested as ammunition.
+1 on both it being a S&W M&P model (pre-Model 10) and that the S/N is stamped on the bottom of the grip frame (remove the grips).
Two other points....
Inspect the barrel markings carefully. Determine if the barrel says ".38 S&W CTG" or if it is marked ".38 S&W Special CTG". The first marking would indicate the gun was originally chambered for the shorter .38 S&W cartridge. If a .38 Special cartridge fits the chambers, it may have been rechambered after the war. In this case, have a gunsmith inspect the gun as some of those were poorly done.
Some (but not all) Victory models actually have a duplicate serial number stamped on the rear of the cylinder -- probably for arsenal refitters to match up the parts with the frames.
Some of these old revolvers were made in 4", 5" and 6" barrels. I've found that the 5" barrel balances better than either the shorter or longer ones.
Two other points....
Inspect the barrel markings carefully. Determine if the barrel says ".38 S&W CTG" or if it is marked ".38 S&W Special CTG". The first marking would indicate the gun was originally chambered for the shorter .38 S&W cartridge. If a .38 Special cartridge fits the chambers, it may have been rechambered after the war. In this case, have a gunsmith inspect the gun as some of those were poorly done.
Some (but not all) Victory models actually have a duplicate serial number stamped on the rear of the cylinder -- probably for arsenal refitters to match up the parts with the frames.
Some of these old revolvers were made in 4", 5" and 6" barrels. I've found that the 5" barrel balances better than either the shorter or longer ones.
doubleaes2
New member
What state do you live in that requires you to register this gun?
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the help so far. However I am still without a serial number. So, this is not a model 10 but rather a pre-model 10?
I have taken off both of the grips on the butt, still nothing. I will check again. I’m assuming my best bet at this point is to take it to a gunsmith?
The gun must be registered, unfortunately, in New York State.
Thanks for the help so far. However I am still without a serial number. So, this is not a model 10 but rather a pre-model 10?
I have taken off both of the grips on the butt, still nothing. I will check again. I’m assuming my best bet at this point is to take it to a gunsmith?
The gun must be registered, unfortunately, in New York State.
Person of Interest
New member
I am guessing that your gun looks something like this one:
This one has a 5" barrel and the military lanyard ring on the butt. Yours may have a 4" barrel and no ring but it is essentially the same gun. These are referred to as Military & Police revolvers (M&P). These would become the Model 10 in 1957 when S&W began using model numbers.
As noted, the two most likely calibers are .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special. It should be stamped on the barrel.
This gun should have a serial number and it should be found on the butt where the ring is mounted on the pictured gun. If no number is present you may have a copy of the S&W made in Europe or perhaps someone has removed the number. The former makes the gun worth very little and the latter makes the gun illegal.
I would take the gun to gunsmith for a final determination. It's too hard to do over the Internet without actually seeing the gun.
This one has a 5" barrel and the military lanyard ring on the butt. Yours may have a 4" barrel and no ring but it is essentially the same gun. These are referred to as Military & Police revolvers (M&P). These would become the Model 10 in 1957 when S&W began using model numbers.
As noted, the two most likely calibers are .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special. It should be stamped on the barrel.
This gun should have a serial number and it should be found on the butt where the ring is mounted on the pictured gun. If no number is present you may have a copy of the S&W made in Europe or perhaps someone has removed the number. The former makes the gun worth very little and the latter makes the gun illegal.
I would take the gun to gunsmith for a final determination. It's too hard to do over the Internet without actually seeing the gun.
Fellas,
Here's the situation so far: I came across the gun this weekend at home while I was home from college for the last weekend of New York's Deer Season, but since I am at college right now I won't be able to take pictures for another ten days or so when I return home for Christmas Vacation. I will put those up as soon as I can. However, I will call my dad this afternoon and have him double check for the serial number underneath the handgrips and relay to me every word that he can find stamped on the gun.
Dean, it does say Smith and Wesson in a number of places, I will tell you exactly where after I talk to my father.
Person of Interest: Two things. 1) I have a sneaky suspicion that your theory about the gun being manufactured in Europe is true because of a rather peculiar set of imprints on the barrel. I will relay you the information in the later post that will be up this evening. In addition to that, the fact that the gun is worth very little monetary is of little importance to me. I would be using it more for the emotional feeling of using the same revolver as my grandfather during the war and of not letting it sit to rot in the attic. However, the fact that the serial numbers may have been removed does pose a problem because, as you said, it would be illegal. You have been great help and hopefully my pictures and future information can help you help me even more. 2) My gun looks exactly as the one in the picture with few exception. Although I thought that the barrel of my gun looked like a 4"er, looking at this one I believe it is also 5 (I didn't measure because of my lack of time). The subtle differences are that there is a S&W seal printed just to the upper left of where the grips end in this picture, right below the button to release the cylinder (sorry for the untechnical handgun terms, I have never owned one). Also, the emblem on the stock is silver, not gold. Lastly, the only difference I can see here is that, as I said earlier, there is no landyard ring, in fact the wood of the handgrips covers the bottom of the butt.
Hope this helps fellas, and I will respond later with just about all that I know.
Here's the situation so far: I came across the gun this weekend at home while I was home from college for the last weekend of New York's Deer Season, but since I am at college right now I won't be able to take pictures for another ten days or so when I return home for Christmas Vacation. I will put those up as soon as I can. However, I will call my dad this afternoon and have him double check for the serial number underneath the handgrips and relay to me every word that he can find stamped on the gun.
Dean, it does say Smith and Wesson in a number of places, I will tell you exactly where after I talk to my father.
Person of Interest: Two things. 1) I have a sneaky suspicion that your theory about the gun being manufactured in Europe is true because of a rather peculiar set of imprints on the barrel. I will relay you the information in the later post that will be up this evening. In addition to that, the fact that the gun is worth very little monetary is of little importance to me. I would be using it more for the emotional feeling of using the same revolver as my grandfather during the war and of not letting it sit to rot in the attic. However, the fact that the serial numbers may have been removed does pose a problem because, as you said, it would be illegal. You have been great help and hopefully my pictures and future information can help you help me even more. 2) My gun looks exactly as the one in the picture with few exception. Although I thought that the barrel of my gun looked like a 4"er, looking at this one I believe it is also 5 (I didn't measure because of my lack of time). The subtle differences are that there is a S&W seal printed just to the upper left of where the grips end in this picture, right below the button to release the cylinder (sorry for the untechnical handgun terms, I have never owned one). Also, the emblem on the stock is silver, not gold. Lastly, the only difference I can see here is that, as I said earlier, there is no landyard ring, in fact the wood of the handgrips covers the bottom of the butt.
Hope this helps fellas, and I will respond later with just about all that I know.
Sir William
New member
It strikes me as a oddity. I wonder if you have a Model of 1905? These predated the M&Ps and would have the S&W logo on the LEFT SIDE of the frame. Does your hammer have REG. U.S. PAT stamped on it? There should be two maltese crosses in the patent address on top of the barrel. On the RIGHT SIDE towards the front, is MADE IN USA or MARCAS REGISTRADUS stamped? What does the bottom of the barrel where the locking lug is look like? A good picture would aid. The revolver should have the S/N stamped on the bottom of the butt, the bottom of the barrel, the cylinder face, inside the crane on both the frame and the crane.
It was common for returning GI's to grind off serial numbers and/or U.S. Gov't Property markings.
If such is the case, do not give up hope, as the ATF may issue you a new serial number. I've seen this very thing happen with a Victory Model a friend bought as part of an estate.
It could also be a pre-war civilian M&P. Another possibility is one of the Spanish S&W copies that Europe was awash in during the first part of the 20th Century. Strange stuff sometimes found its way home from the war.
If such is the case, do not give up hope, as the ATF may issue you a new serial number. I've seen this very thing happen with a Victory Model a friend bought as part of an estate.
It could also be a pre-war civilian M&P. Another possibility is one of the Spanish S&W copies that Europe was awash in during the first part of the 20th Century. Strange stuff sometimes found its way home from the war.
Waaaaa why can't I find something like that. All I found when I cleaned my attic were dead roaches.Gentlemen,
Here is the info I have, sorry that the post is a day late.
First of all, I have been entertaining the idea that this may be a Model 1905, simply because of the S & W seal that is on the left side of the gun just below the cylinder release, as is in this picture of the 1905:
Secondly, the barrel (which as you will see poses me a number of problems) does not even list the caliber. In fact, the only way I know what caliber it is are by the bullets that were found in the belt that was lying with the holster, which were .38 specials.
Here's the story with the tricky barrel: On the left side is MADE IN USA and on the right side is WESSON. On the top, however, are the following words, printed four times; MADE IN FRANCE. This poses problems for me. However, my father claims that both the MADE IN USA and WESSON prints look professional and articulate, whereas the MADE IN FRANCE does not.
After looking at the picture posted by Person of Interest and one of the Model 1905, we think is more closely resembles the 1905 because of the seal.
There are silver S & W seals on both sides of the grips. The grips have never been replaced and show the wear that looks as though they have been throw a war.
There is another MADE IN USA on the right side above and in front of the trigger between the trigger and the cylinder.
Now, here's one that hopefully won't throw you guys. I remembered reading that the Victory Model and the Model 1905 were 6 shots. I went back and counted the holes in this cylinder, and there are 5. Any ideas?
Still no serial numbers anywhere. I checked in all of the places listed on this thread. I took the plates off again, nothing beneath the wood.
Is it time to take the gun to the ATF? (thanks Tamara) Can I even give it a serial number without knowing the model? Will there be someone there who can tell me the model type?
I will put up a picture as soon as I get home.
The only other thing I can offer is that the gun is in an authentic leather holster with a branded US on the front.
Thank you for all of the help.
Here is the info I have, sorry that the post is a day late.
First of all, I have been entertaining the idea that this may be a Model 1905, simply because of the S & W seal that is on the left side of the gun just below the cylinder release, as is in this picture of the 1905:
Secondly, the barrel (which as you will see poses me a number of problems) does not even list the caliber. In fact, the only way I know what caliber it is are by the bullets that were found in the belt that was lying with the holster, which were .38 specials.
Here's the story with the tricky barrel: On the left side is MADE IN USA and on the right side is WESSON. On the top, however, are the following words, printed four times; MADE IN FRANCE. This poses problems for me. However, my father claims that both the MADE IN USA and WESSON prints look professional and articulate, whereas the MADE IN FRANCE does not.
After looking at the picture posted by Person of Interest and one of the Model 1905, we think is more closely resembles the 1905 because of the seal.
There are silver S & W seals on both sides of the grips. The grips have never been replaced and show the wear that looks as though they have been throw a war.
There is another MADE IN USA on the right side above and in front of the trigger between the trigger and the cylinder.
Now, here's one that hopefully won't throw you guys. I remembered reading that the Victory Model and the Model 1905 were 6 shots. I went back and counted the holes in this cylinder, and there are 5. Any ideas?
Still no serial numbers anywhere. I checked in all of the places listed on this thread. I took the plates off again, nothing beneath the wood.
Is it time to take the gun to the ATF? (thanks Tamara) Can I even give it a serial number without knowing the model? Will there be someone there who can tell me the model type?
I will put up a picture as soon as I get home.
The only other thing I can offer is that the gun is in an authentic leather holster with a branded US on the front.
Thank you for all of the help.
Sir William
New member
That sounds more like a Eibar in the basque region of Spain hand made one off. MADE IN FRANCE? Hmmm? I would like to see pictures of this Frankenstein & Wesson. Strange.
Could be wrong, been wrong before, will be wrong again, However somewhere in the distance I hear a sound that sounds like a chain being pulled. Folks, take a clean peice of note book paper and start puting down all the facts thats been given so far?? As Mr. Spock would say " something smells ".
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
You've posed an interesting puzzle, Deano - -
If you're sure about there being five chambers in the cylinder, then we're ALL guilty of having jumped to an erroneous conclusion. That being the case, the revolver is NOT a Smith & Wesson Military & Police, nor is it a Model 1905.
About the only older-vintage, five shot, non-snubnose, swingout cylinder, double action, .38 caliber S&W revolver of which I'm aware is the .38 Regulation Police. This was produced on the old I-frame, noticibly smaller than the M&P, which was and is on the K-frame.
You write - -
Problem is, the .38 Regulation Police model was produced ONLY in caliber .38 S&W, a very different cartridge from the .38 Special, though they are visually similar but for the length. There are various possibilities here.
--One, the revolver is indeed chambered for .38 S&W. Oftimes, we see what we expect to see, especially if outside our area of expertise. Could it be that the ammunition you saw with this revolver was headstamped, ".38 S&W" rather than ".38 Special?" Another possibility is that your Granda' might have either been unable to easily locate the S&W ammo after the war, or might have wanted to display the revolver and accessories, without the possibility of someone loading it.
--Two, someone ran a .38 Special reamer into the chambers, so it would accept the longer cartridge. This was fairly common with some larger-frame S&Ws produced for the British and then repatriated to the USA as surplus. While this may be acceptable with a K-frame revolver, it is a chancy proposition with the smaller, lighter I-frame, and I, for one, would be hesitant to fire it with .38 Spl ammo. This would be easily determined if you take a (verified) .38 SPECIAL cartridge and drop it into the chamber. If it goes fully into the chamber, with the rim resting against the rear cylinder surface, then it DOES take the longer round. An aside: The cylinder of a normal I-frame revolver is not long enough to accept standard length .38 Special cartridges. One would need to trim a bit off the bullet nose to make 'em function, or else use short-seated "wadcutter" target ammunition.
Couple of suggestions. As long as you're taking photos of the revolver, please bu sure to photograph the rear face of the cylinder. Also - - If this is indeed a I-frame Regulation Police model, the holster will be of interest - - Please photograph it from the outside, with the flap closed, with the flap open, and also from the rear, with special attention to the markings.
Also - - The various markings on the revolver are of interest. In which are of the military did your grandfather serve? Do you know where he was stationed, at any time? (Prewar, in wartime, or postwar.) I'm thinking of all the US made firearms I've seen with British proof marks on them. Also - - For citizens of certain countries, it might have been easier to own a firearm produced in Europe, and thus the "Made in France" markings . . . .
You present us with a topic of lively conversation, sir. I eagerly await your photographs and additional information.
Best,
Johnny
If you're sure about there being five chambers in the cylinder, then we're ALL guilty of having jumped to an erroneous conclusion. That being the case, the revolver is NOT a Smith & Wesson Military & Police, nor is it a Model 1905.
About the only older-vintage, five shot, non-snubnose, swingout cylinder, double action, .38 caliber S&W revolver of which I'm aware is the .38 Regulation Police. This was produced on the old I-frame, noticibly smaller than the M&P, which was and is on the K-frame.
You write - -
Again, we (I) may have misread what you wrote. If so, the problem is with my misperception, not your writing. You said right up front that you are not well versed in firearms terminology. Anyhow - - by "inside the butt" -- might you mean, on the front of the frame, inside the curve formed by the frame and the trigger guard? Reason I ask is that on this model, "The serial number is found on the front tang or forestrap." (From Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 2nd edition, by Jim Supica and Richard Nahas, p. 108.) According to the same source, the prewar .38 RP serial number range is 1 to 54474 manufactured between 1917 and 1940, which would certainly include your number 1177.
Problem is, the .38 Regulation Police model was produced ONLY in caliber .38 S&W, a very different cartridge from the .38 Special, though they are visually similar but for the length. There are various possibilities here.
--One, the revolver is indeed chambered for .38 S&W. Oftimes, we see what we expect to see, especially if outside our area of expertise. Could it be that the ammunition you saw with this revolver was headstamped, ".38 S&W" rather than ".38 Special?" Another possibility is that your Granda' might have either been unable to easily locate the S&W ammo after the war, or might have wanted to display the revolver and accessories, without the possibility of someone loading it.
--Two, someone ran a .38 Special reamer into the chambers, so it would accept the longer cartridge. This was fairly common with some larger-frame S&Ws produced for the British and then repatriated to the USA as surplus. While this may be acceptable with a K-frame revolver, it is a chancy proposition with the smaller, lighter I-frame, and I, for one, would be hesitant to fire it with .38 Spl ammo. This would be easily determined if you take a (verified) .38 SPECIAL cartridge and drop it into the chamber. If it goes fully into the chamber, with the rim resting against the rear cylinder surface, then it DOES take the longer round. An aside: The cylinder of a normal I-frame revolver is not long enough to accept standard length .38 Special cartridges. One would need to trim a bit off the bullet nose to make 'em function, or else use short-seated "wadcutter" target ammunition.
Couple of suggestions. As long as you're taking photos of the revolver, please bu sure to photograph the rear face of the cylinder. Also - - If this is indeed a I-frame Regulation Police model, the holster will be of interest - - Please photograph it from the outside, with the flap closed, with the flap open, and also from the rear, with special attention to the markings.
Also - - The various markings on the revolver are of interest. In which are of the military did your grandfather serve? Do you know where he was stationed, at any time? (Prewar, in wartime, or postwar.) I'm thinking of all the US made firearms I've seen with British proof marks on them. Also - - For citizens of certain countries, it might have been easier to own a firearm produced in Europe, and thus the "Made in France" markings . . . .
You present us with a topic of lively conversation, sir. I eagerly await your photographs and additional information.
Best,
Johnny
Well, what's the word?
I'm fascinated, and suspect that Johnny Guest has put forth the most likely answer. Do we need to kick this one over to Harley Nolden's forum for another look at it?
I cannot believe that this thread made it so far without the issue of cylinder capacity having arisen...
I'm fascinated, and suspect that Johnny Guest has put forth the most likely answer. Do we need to kick this one over to Harley Nolden's forum for another look at it?
I cannot believe that this thread made it so far without the issue of cylinder capacity having arisen...