Help: Firing pin is missing the primer.

G

gfen

New member
Came back from the range today, and I seem to have developed a slight issue.

Using a S&W 1960's vintage Model 38 I suddenly developed a bad case of the firing pin NOT hitting the primer. It impacts about a millimeter to the side.

Now, this guy is old, obviously, and came used to me. The shop which I've been known to frequent tells me that it had freshly returned from S&W where it had the timing adjusted and tightened, and I'd believe it.

Ive used a pen and would dry fire it in single action, each time would drop a pen down the barrel and into the cylinder both when it was locked up (trigger sitll back), and after releasing, and there was no sticking. I'm no revolver expert, but it doesn't look like it was spitting, as I would try to tell (ie, looking for particles of lead to one side of the forcing cone).

I've probably put about 400 rounds of standard pressure .38spl down this (Winchester, Magtech, Ultramax, and Remington) since I picked it up. Last time I was at the range, I'd done 100 rds of Ultramax with no issues. THis time, I shot 50 Remington UMCs with no issue, and only developed the problem in the box of Magtechs I started on next. It would fail about 1 in every 10, I'd say, and I'm unsure if its the same chamber or not.

Its a hammer mounted pin, and it is definatly a bit loose on the end of the hammer, in how it appears to sort of be a second piece, not tightly fixed to the hammer. The ring in which the pin moves through to strike the primer appears to be evenly worn, there's no chips in the pin and if I drop the hammer on a pen, the pen will shoot out and touch the ceiling.

Suggestions on issue and solution?
 
Before you attempt to fire the gun again, run the test in the sticky at the top of this forum paying careful attention to the tests for cylinder/bore alignment.

It sounds like the chambers are not lining up with the bore and therefore aren't centered on the firing pin either. You certainly don't want to fire it in that condition.
 
And now I know why I didn't see a problem before today, and why I couldn't find a problem eyeballing it or using the pen to check alignment.

Works fine in single action. Well, I mean, when I pull the hammer back slowly and paitently manually.

However, when I do it in double action, specifically the faster I go it will routinely miss a chamber. Sort of just spins one by too fast.

Damnit.
 
Perfectly normal. Nothing is wrong with the revolver. S&Ws are known for this. I can do the same thing with all of my S&Ws in J, K or N frames. You must allow the trigger to reset or you will spin by a chamber. I suspect you will notice long leads into the locking notches. Slow down first. I suggest another gunsmith check the action/lockwork to see if the locking notches, the bolt and their springs are in proper specs/tension. I really do not think this is a problem unless the revolver fails to stay locked at full cock in SA mode. EMPTY the revolver. Cock the hammer on all chambers one at a time. When the hammer is fully cocked, attempt to move the cylinder side to side. If it unlocks or free wheels, DEADLINE it and take it to a gunsmith. If it locks up and stays locked, no problem. If you try to shoot S&Ws too fast, they will spin past the chamber now and again. You can also EMPTY your revolver and begin a slow double action pull and watch the bolt retract, you can turn the cylinder then by hand. Natural and common. S&Ws are not all set up for Jerry Miculek and speed shooting. S&W may or may not have even seen that revolver. Was there a ticket to prove the repair?
 
"However, when I do it in double action, specifically the faster I go it will routinely miss a chamber. Sort of just spins one by too fast."

It sounds like you have a timing problem that could easily be caused by the cylinder bolt not returning quickly enough due to grease or dirt or a bad spring.

Try this...

Make sure the gun is EMPTY!

Do what you need to do to replicate the problem.

Once you think you've replicated it, grab the cylinder and twist, side to side. If the cylinder rotates freely, or you hear a click, that's a pretty good indication that the cylinder bolt isn't working properly.
 
I've taken it a bit further since the last post, and I think I've partially identified the issue, and also made it worse.

As is my way.

First, I figured out its ONE chamber in teh cylinder that's the source of the problem. If I start with that chamber and vigoriously pull the trigger it spins by an entire chamber. If I'm coming into that chamber from another one, it'll spin by it by abotu halfway.

The locking slots in the cylinder are heavily worn down, Hell, the gun's 40+ years old, I guess it should be expected. Also, while the hand looks to be 100% fine, the star (I guess that's the term for the nubs on the back of the extractor the hand turns) seems to be chewed up pretty well, and parts of the little nubs are actually worn right off. That can't be helping things.

Of course, I tried to fix it. Looks like I caused a whole other problem. I pulled the grips, took out the three plate screws and the side latch, walked outside with a can of WD40 and proceded to hose away. Well, I figure, wanna get it all down inside the bits so it can leak out the bottom, so I pull the latch nub back so the gun will think the cylinder is inplace and procede to work hammer back, saturate, lower hammer, rinse, repeat.

Looks like manually operating said latch nub without the finger piece pulled it outta spec, coz now its locked back. Next stop, learning how to dissassemble revolver and pull side plate.

No matter what, I think I'll be looking into having it properly smithed to check the timing and stops. However, I definatly want to make it work properly again, its a matter of pride.

I'm working on trying to tap off the side plate. I already knew enough not to pry it off. I'm not completely stupid...just mostly. ;)
 
OK. That revolver NEVER went back to S&W and it didn't have any work done to it. The shop was fed a line. DEADLINE it. Arrange with S&W for the revolver to be shipped either back to them or to a factory service center gunsmith. With the updated information, that revolver is a dangerous POJ until it is rebuilt, retimed and parts/pieces are replaced.
 
Agreed.

I'm not going to use it until its serviced, but on the other hand, I still want to at least restore it to its original, improperly functioning, condition.

I think its mostly a matter of pride, since I borke it further, but its a moot point. I want to at least do what I can, if for nothing else personal acheivement and the fact that I'm that much more secure in the mechanical aspect of these things.
 
"Looks like manually operating said latch nub without the finger piece pulled it outta spec, coz now its locked back. Next stop, learning how to dissassemble revolver and pull side plate."

Shouldn't have. Probably an accumulation of crud and junk.

Now that you've used WD-40...

Stop.

Don't use WD-40 on guns unless you follow it up with a good bath of brake cleaner.

The oil in WD-40, once the carrier solvent evaporates, goes stale and gums up pretty quickly.
 
I've been running this thread on two seperate forums, I'm furhter along on the other one coz its S&W specific.

Anyways, have it apart, properly working. It appears that the timing issue may have even resolved itself.

For anyone curious, removing a side plate is quite easy. Screws out, revolver in palm with the plate up, and a few stout (but not hard) taps with the wood handle of a hammer lets it pop up and watch for the hammer block to not fall out.

Since I have it open, I'll probably give it another hose down in Gum Cutter, then apply either some grease or CLP to key points and close 'er up.
 
Closure!

Well, we took care of the problem.

All my cleaning didn't do anything, but I went back to the dealer who apologized for the mistake and offered me full credit OR they'd send it back to be repaired for free.

Figured I liked the no-lock aspect of my M38, so I wanted to keep it. Went back to S&W...

(fast forward about three weeks)

...Came back today and picked it up. They replaced the cylinder stop spring and in some informal dry firing, I think we're good!

And now you know, and we all know what GI Joe had to say about that.

gfen, happiness is a warm^H^H^H^H light gun.
 
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