Help clarify 'surplus' powders

chris in va

New member
Our bi-annual gun show is this weekend and there are the usual vendors offering jugs of W-844 (etc) powders.

Could someone educate me on these mystery powders, and if I find one for say, $100...could I use it for 5.56 safely? Just a general education would be appreciated.
 
Looks like it's going to be muddy. WC844 is similar to H335. It can be labeled "virgin never loaded" or "pulldown". Prices have increased too much on surplus powders I don't think it's much of a bargain any more except for loading 50 BMG. You have to work up loads every time with a new lot of WC844. In the past I've seen 24-24.5 grains of WC844 equal 25 grains of H335 in velocity and a couple lots of "virgin-never loaded" not equal to 25 grains of H335 even at 26.5 grain. A chronograph is very helpful working up loads with surplus powders. So you don't know if WC844 is faster or slower than commercial H335. You might see a powder called "Long Range" which is supposed to be similar to Alliant Reloder 15 and might work ok with heavier .223 bullets? Possibly some surplus 4895. Probably WC 860 and IMR 5010 suitable for 50 BMG. Usually a couple pistol surplus powders similar to Hodgdon H110-AA#9 called WC820. Just compare prices of Hodgdon H335 commercial 8 lbs. to the price of the surplus powder that you'll have to carefully work up. Check out this link and it shows what a lot of surplus powder names and what they are similar to:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?7584-Surplus-Powder-sources
I'm hoping to go myself but don't know about the weather and muddy conditions. I know I'm not going to park in the lower parking lot even if it's not flooded. Haven't missed going in several years. Don't really need anything but like the show plus being surrounded by thousands of like-minded gun owners.
 
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WC844 is what H335 is, except WC844 is bulk grade and H335 is canister grade. Canister grade goes through extra processing steps to control the burn rate to ±3% which is good enough to make sure load manual data remains valid with different lots of it. Bulk grade has a wider (occasionally much wider) lot-to-lot burn rate tolerance, necessitating the adjustment of loads to accommodate whatever burn rate the particular lot actually has. Commercial manufacturers buy the bulk version because it's fewer processing steps make it cheaper, but the manufacturers have pressure test guns to enable them to adjust the charge weight to the particular lot. Hand loaders usually do not.

As suggested earlier, it may be surplus for any of a number of reasons. Worst case, it's surplus because it's burn rate turned out to be so far off the norm that it's not serviceable for 5.56 ball ammo, which was WC844's original purpose. Second worst case is that it's very old and can't be trusted to be loaded and not fired promptly. (Double base propellants age and break down faster than single-base stick powders do. The military only keeps them 20 years, where they keep single-base stick powders for 45 years. Both are conservative numbers under good conditions, but you have to keep an eye out for deterioration anyway.) Pull down powder is going to be from surplused out ammo that was probably at least 20 years old, though occasionally it's because its pressure got too high as it aged. However, at it has the advantage that at least you know it qualified for loading in 5.56 at some point in time. Finally, best case for fresher powder, is it was surplused out because it was overstocked, but is perfectly serviceable.

But there's no way to know which reason it was. At best, with the wider burn rate tolerance, you're in for some careful experimenting to ensure you can roll a serviceable load out of it. Board member Hummer70, who used to work for Aberdeen proving ground said that the worst case he ever saw was a lot of bulk powder 30% off the nominal burn rate and that didn't qualify for its intended use. The second worse was, I believe, 20% off. Burn rate and pressure do not track. In QuickLOAD a 30% high burn rate with WC844 can be compensated for by reducing charge weight about 19%. So if you have a known good maximum load with H335, multiply it by 0.81 to get a first test load with the surplus lot. The drawback is that if the burn rate is normal, this will be a very slow, dirty burning load. Worse, if it's burn rate is 30% low, that reduced load could leave a bullet stuck in the barrel.

I can think of a way around this predicament. First check that the powder has no sign of deterioration by sight or smell (reddish fumes or dust; acrid acid smell), but I hesitate to recommend to anyone without some experience handling chemicals. It involves working up a middling load with fresh H335 bought from the store, then replacing 5% of it with a sample of the surplus powder blended carefully in and firing them over a chronograph side by side, under the same conditions, to see if the blend takes velocity up or down. If it goes up, the surplus is faster. If it goes down, the surplus is slower. Then, at least you know which direction the charge weights for the surplus will have to go.
 
I bought 32 pounds of 1960s military surplus pull down bulk IMR4895 from Hi-Tech 10 or 15 years ago for $10/lb.

I have bought pounds of canister grade IMR4895.

They are different.

To get Quickload to predict the threshold of extractor groove growth [pressure] and chrono measurement [velocity] for the surplus powder, I would need to alter some of the constants in QL. But fortunately for me, The QL library settings for H322 are a perfect match for the burning speed and density of my surplus IMR4895.

So one could look at it as if I paid for surplus bulk 4895 but got canister grade H322 instead from shooting it.
 
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