Just a quick question for you semi-auto veterans. I'm confused on how specifically decocker-equipped semi-automatics work. Manual safeties and double-action-only pistols are obvious, but could someone please explain the decocker mechanism to me? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks.
Help A Newbie: Manual v. Decocker v. DAOnly
- Thread starter GunFool
- Start date
Ok I'll try
Normal DA/SA with decocker semi auto is carried with full mag & one in the chamber, and the hammer down(like a double action revolver). When the first shot is made, a long double action pull is required to fire the round. When the slide cycles, the hammer goes back with it to cock for the next shot. Each subsequent shot requires only a shorter, lighter single action pull to fire(like a cocked double action revolver). The decocker comes in when you need to return to the 'hammer down on a live round' condition. The decocker safely returns/lowers the hammer to the double action position, usually by rotating or blocking the firing pin from the hammer.
It prevents the chance of a AD/ND by making it easier/safer than "thumbing" the hammer down to the double action position, like you would do on a revolver if you manually cocked it, but decided not to fire, and wanted to return to the 'safe to carry condition'.
Hope this answers your question.
Normal DA/SA with decocker semi auto is carried with full mag & one in the chamber, and the hammer down(like a double action revolver). When the first shot is made, a long double action pull is required to fire the round. When the slide cycles, the hammer goes back with it to cock for the next shot. Each subsequent shot requires only a shorter, lighter single action pull to fire(like a cocked double action revolver). The decocker comes in when you need to return to the 'hammer down on a live round' condition. The decocker safely returns/lowers the hammer to the double action position, usually by rotating or blocking the firing pin from the hammer.
It prevents the chance of a AD/ND by making it easier/safer than "thumbing" the hammer down to the double action position, like you would do on a revolver if you manually cocked it, but decided not to fire, and wanted to return to the 'safe to carry condition'.
Hope this answers your question.
Ok, so how do these differences translate into the carry preferences of so many people? I mean, is one way actually 'safer' than the other? A single-action needs to be cocked and the manual/external safety engaged to carry. A lot of people seem to worry about this. It would also seem that a single-action would be slower on the draw with the need to click off that thumb safety. A double-action-only pistol would seem to be the quickest draw-to-shoot with no safety to worry about, the downside being its heavier trigger pull. A decock double-action (if I understand correctly) is no different from a regular double action the first shot, but with a lighter trigger after the first (????). The actual decock mechanism isn't really a safety, just a way to return the firing pin to the initial double-action trigger pull after firing. Does that mean you can carry your DA decock pistol in either its 'hammer-resting on a chamber' or 'hammer cocked' positions?
Sorry if these questions are grossly mundane, but I appreciate all of your help and guidance. Cant wait to buy my first semi-auto but without the means to try out many first hand, I need to get my research done here. Thanks.
Sorry if these questions are grossly mundane, but I appreciate all of your help and guidance. Cant wait to buy my first semi-auto but without the means to try out many first hand, I need to get my research done here. Thanks.
You have to understand that gun owners will debate the most incredibly minor detailed points as if the fate of the free world depended on them. 9mm vs. .40, DA vs. Condition 1, Revolver vs. Autoloader have all led to much name-calling, questioning of intelligence, and public doubting of parental lineage.
If you've trained and practiced with a particular system such that it's safe operation has become second nature, you've done all you can. You are miles ahead of the people still scratching their heads on the sidelines because they can't decide whether the grip angle of the WhizBang 2010+P++ is correct for 50 yard double-taps.
To directly answer your last question: Yes, you can cock the hammer on a DA autopistol (assuming it's not DA-only). Many would recommend against it since it would leave you with a very light trigger pull and not much positive deliberate action required to make the gun go bang.
If you've trained and practiced with a particular system such that it's safe operation has become second nature, you've done all you can. You are miles ahead of the people still scratching their heads on the sidelines because they can't decide whether the grip angle of the WhizBang 2010+P++ is correct for 50 yard double-taps.
To directly answer your last question: Yes, you can cock the hammer on a DA autopistol (assuming it's not DA-only). Many would recommend against it since it would leave you with a very light trigger pull and not much positive deliberate action required to make the gun go bang.
Does that mean you can carry your DA decock pistol in either its 'hammer-resting on a chamber' or 'hammer cocked' positions?
To the best of my knowledge, only HK and Taurus offer DA/SA pistols with the ability to carry "cocked & locked".
In my opinion, it would be unsafe to carry a cocked & unlocked DA autopistol like Beretta 92/96 F or G, SIG P series etc. These are designed to be carried with hammer down(double action mode)on a round in the chamber.
To the best of my knowledge, only HK and Taurus offer DA/SA pistols with the ability to carry "cocked & locked".
In my opinion, it would be unsafe to carry a cocked & unlocked DA autopistol like Beretta 92/96 F or G, SIG P series etc. These are designed to be carried with hammer down(double action mode)on a round in the chamber.
GunFool:
With single actions, the hammer is cocked when the slide is retracted. So when you load the gun (insert magazine, rack the slide to charge the chamber), you are also automatically cocking the hammer. Then you apply the safety and holster.
The safety does not in any way slow down your first shot. As you draw the gun, when the barrel reaches a 45 degree angle with the ground, you lower the safety. The safety is thus off by the time the gun gets on target. So the safety does not in anyway slow down the first shot. In reality, the short, light trigger on an M1911 makes it much easier to get a fast, accurate shot off than on a gun with a heavy, long-stroke trigger. Yes, you do have to learn to operate the safety properly and to do so without having to think about it.
You are correct that with a DA/SA, you start with the hammer down. You have a long-hard trigger pull for your first shot. When the slide cycles after the first shot, it automatically cocks the hammer. You now have a short, light single-action trigger pull. Before holstering, you must decock using the decocking lever.
Most DA/SA have a decocking lever. Many DA/SA do not have a manual safety -- e.g., Sig. These guns must be carried decocked.
On some DA/SA, the decocking lever is also a safety -- e.g., S&W, Beretta, but this safety can only be applied when the gun has been decocked. These guns must be carried decocked, either safety on or safety off.
Just to confuse things further, the HK USP is DA/SA with an integrated decocker/safety lever and the safety can be applied either cocked or decocked. So the HK USP can be carried either 1) cocked and safety on, 2) decocked and safety off, 3) decocked and safety on.
If you haven't alreay, I strongly recommend that you take an NRA Basic Pistol class. They will provide a semi-auto and revolver during the class, and will teach you the basics of handling semi-autos.
In terms of the safety of the various actions, I often carry a M1911 cocked and locked and feel quite safe doing so. I've also carried DAO guns and felt quite safe using those. I have a DA/SA gun and feel safe using it as well. Any of these actions can be carried safely and any can be mishandled. All require training and practice. I've had a fair bit of training, including training on working from the holster.
The manual of arms for SA and DA/SA pistols is somewhat more complicated than DAO. But either can be learned with proper training and practice.
My preference is for a gun with a consistent trigger pull -- either SA or DAO. I don't like the transition from the long-hard DA trigger pull to the short-easy SA trigger pull of the DA/SA. Personally, it was much easier for me to learn to operate the M1911 safety than it has been to try to master the DA/SA transition. And I find myself better able to get fast and accurate shots with the short, light SA trigger pull. YMMV.
M1911
With single actions, the hammer is cocked when the slide is retracted. So when you load the gun (insert magazine, rack the slide to charge the chamber), you are also automatically cocking the hammer. Then you apply the safety and holster.
The safety does not in any way slow down your first shot. As you draw the gun, when the barrel reaches a 45 degree angle with the ground, you lower the safety. The safety is thus off by the time the gun gets on target. So the safety does not in anyway slow down the first shot. In reality, the short, light trigger on an M1911 makes it much easier to get a fast, accurate shot off than on a gun with a heavy, long-stroke trigger. Yes, you do have to learn to operate the safety properly and to do so without having to think about it.
You are correct that with a DA/SA, you start with the hammer down. You have a long-hard trigger pull for your first shot. When the slide cycles after the first shot, it automatically cocks the hammer. You now have a short, light single-action trigger pull. Before holstering, you must decock using the decocking lever.
Most DA/SA have a decocking lever. Many DA/SA do not have a manual safety -- e.g., Sig. These guns must be carried decocked.
On some DA/SA, the decocking lever is also a safety -- e.g., S&W, Beretta, but this safety can only be applied when the gun has been decocked. These guns must be carried decocked, either safety on or safety off.
Just to confuse things further, the HK USP is DA/SA with an integrated decocker/safety lever and the safety can be applied either cocked or decocked. So the HK USP can be carried either 1) cocked and safety on, 2) decocked and safety off, 3) decocked and safety on.
If you haven't alreay, I strongly recommend that you take an NRA Basic Pistol class. They will provide a semi-auto and revolver during the class, and will teach you the basics of handling semi-autos.
In terms of the safety of the various actions, I often carry a M1911 cocked and locked and feel quite safe doing so. I've also carried DAO guns and felt quite safe using those. I have a DA/SA gun and feel safe using it as well. Any of these actions can be carried safely and any can be mishandled. All require training and practice. I've had a fair bit of training, including training on working from the holster.
The manual of arms for SA and DA/SA pistols is somewhat more complicated than DAO. But either can be learned with proper training and practice.
My preference is for a gun with a consistent trigger pull -- either SA or DAO. I don't like the transition from the long-hard DA trigger pull to the short-easy SA trigger pull of the DA/SA. Personally, it was much easier for me to learn to operate the M1911 safety than it has been to try to master the DA/SA transition. And I find myself better able to get fast and accurate shots with the short, light SA trigger pull. YMMV.
M1911
GunFool
You're asking the right questions so keep at it.
One key point is that the safety on any firearm is between the ears, not on the gun.
All of the ones mentiond are safe if used properly. There are even pistols like the HS2000 that have many redundant safeties, but no one should ever rely on any mechanical device. Training and practice, intent and carry through are what make a handgun safe.
FWIW, a revolver has no real safety, much like a double action or DA/SA pistol. A single action revolver is much like a SA pistol, but without the capability to carry cocked and locked. Folks may agrue one solution over the other, but in the end it comes down to the user. If YOU are safety concious, your pistol will be safe.
Take care and be safe.
You're asking the right questions so keep at it.
One key point is that the safety on any firearm is between the ears, not on the gun.
All of the ones mentiond are safe if used properly. There are even pistols like the HS2000 that have many redundant safeties, but no one should ever rely on any mechanical device. Training and practice, intent and carry through are what make a handgun safe.
FWIW, a revolver has no real safety, much like a double action or DA/SA pistol. A single action revolver is much like a SA pistol, but without the capability to carry cocked and locked. Folks may agrue one solution over the other, but in the end it comes down to the user. If YOU are safety concious, your pistol will be safe.
Take care and be safe.