Heavy vs. regular barrel?

C

Coop de Ville

New member
Did a search but can't find too much. I am looking to purchase first rifle, Rem or Savage in .308. I can't decide if I want the open sights to start with and then the option of scoping later or to get the "long range" model and have to shell out for a scope immediately.

I have heard that both barrels shoot the same accuracy, but that the heavy barrel heats up slower, allowing more shots in a shorter amount of time. I then assume that the standard barrel cools off faster, once heated...

As far as cold barrel shots go, is there an accuracy difference, optics aside?

Thanks and regards, -Coop

While I'm here.

Anybody spraypaint synthetic stocks with a rustoleum type paint? I am thinking about playing around with the factory stock and would like to pattern the gun in OD or camo...

[Edited by Coop de Ville on 05-01-2001 at 02:38 PM]
 
First shot accuracy is the same...

but you may find that a heavier rifle is less suceptible to movement. I prefer heavy barreled rifles for that reason.

Bud
 
Coop,

Really depends on what your application for the rifle will be. How do you plan on using it?
 
I don't even know anymore 8(

First I wanted an M1A
Then a 700 PSS
Then a scout
Then an M1A
Then a 10FP or 700VS
then an AR-15
Then an M1A
Then a Model 7 or Savage Scout
Then a 700 ADL

Still want the M1A.

My problem is that I've been saving up for 6 months (and need another few months) to afford a $500 rifle. This will be my first and maybe one of very few, if I can ever find money in the future. I would like it to be accurate, 1 minute or less will do. A rifle I can use out to 500 yards or so. Mostly target stuff and plinking. My options are probably the Savage long range rifles for about $400 or a base model (ADL) Remington, for about the same. I would like to scope it, but would have to wait awhile to do so. I have heard great things about the 700 actions, so maybe I could restock and bed it in the future. The Savage models are already free floated and apparently accruate as well, but I have not been convinced that they are as good as the Rems...
 
I have serious doubts that sporterweight rifles are as accurate as rifles with heavier barrels. This is just my experience, but I've never seen sporterweight rifles shoot groups as small as varmint/target rifles. I see a lot of rifles out at our local range. I know that this is anecdotal, but that's my observation.

The last five-shot group that I measured from my Rem. .223 VS was .246", center-to-center. Even allowing a sporterweight to cool for several minutes between shots, I've never seen one that shoots 1/4" groups, out-of-the-box.
 
You might want to consider the Rem 700 VS

Coop -

The Rem 700 VS has the same action and barrel as the PSS without the PSS price. It uses a 5 1/2 Contour if you are using the Shilen barrel chart. I would consider it a medium varmint barrel profile. It performs well in the field.

Poly-kote or gun-kote are the methods I've seen for doing a camo job on your stock, action, and barrel. YMMV
 
Heavy barrels are inherently more accurate than light
barrel for a number of reasons, some of which are listed on
previous posts.
However, the main reason that H.Barrels are more accurate is because the barrel vibrates less than a light
one would. You will not notice the vibration, but the bullet will just as it leaves the muzzle. The barrel that vibrates more, will in effect "throw" its shots further from group center. This is a general rule but there are exceptions.

The Rem 700 is a much finer rifle in my opinion. The trigger breaks much cleaner than a savage. Accuracy wise, the Sav and Rem are about the same, all things being equal.
I own 700 VS's in 308 and 223. Both will shoot custom handloads 1/2 to 3/4 moa.

If you are buying a rifle for hunting, heavy barrel rifles tend to feel muzzle heavy because of their weight and length. If you do alot of walking this may be undesirable for you.

7.62longrange
 
I always have to get past my "walking hunter' reflex. If you're not going to use this rifle for snap shots on a deer or turkey, or swing on a running deer, a heavy barrel won't hurt you. If you aren't going to walk more than a mile to where you'll do your shooting, 10 to 12 pounds of rifle won't hurt you.

I can tell you that 9-1/2 pounds of rifle at the end of 12 miles or so of very rough country actually will weigh around 40 or 50 pounds by the time you get the misbegotten SOB back to camp! :D (Heck, I'm gettin' down to where a lousy four or five miles gives me the "gripes".)

A heavy barrel is stiffer, which helps accuracy. A longer barrel allows better velocity from a given load, which also helps accuracy.

And 500 yards is reasonably serious business. :)

Art
 
The Rem700 is well known as the best factory rifle. The Savage is the closest in a less expensive rifle.

The main reason for the bull barrel has to do with amplitude of barrel harmonics. Benchrest shooters use 1" straight barrels, or the fatest they can get in the weight category.

Because the wavelength of every barrel / rifle is different you have to do the following:
Decide on the exact bullet you are going to use. Hand load it at increments of 100fps and try for groups from a good bench rest, using a chronograph. You can take a rifle getting 2" groups and bring it down to 1/2" doing this.

You can also try "fire lapping" a factory barrel to possibly get another 1/4" tighter group. Factory barrels are crap compared to custom and vary one to the next.
 
7.62longrange,

"The trigger breaks much cleaner than a savage. Accuracy wise, the Sav and Rem are about the same, all things being equal."

If this is true, I can afford $400 for the Savage (opposed to ~$800 for the PSS) and drop a new trigger in it...

That would leave a little more cash for the glass?
 
Coop
Ditto on all the above about reasons why and why not to have a heavy barrel.
As for painting the stock it have redone the same USGI M14 fiberglass stock a number of times practicing.
I would sugjest picking up a Testors model painting airbrush for about $35.00 and a can of compressed air. Then use Tamiya Milatary flat model paints (available at better Hobby stores)
Study patterns, colors for your area and have at it. When you have the desired pattern use MATTE clear coat for a few coats. sanding lightly inbetween. Finish coat it what Testors DULL COAT (NOT FLAT LAQUER)for a very flat, lusterless finish.
I now have sort of a combination of desert/woodlands but then again that is what it is like where I am.

View
View
View

Just sorta play with it and have fun, You can alway sand it off and start over.

Good Luck

Karsten

[Edited by Karsten on 05-03-2001 at 06:50 PM]
 
Now your talkin Coop :)

The Savage is gonna do you a fine job for many, many years. I am sure it is going to be a fine rifle out of the box and you can a will learn the trigger. You may even be able to have someone just clean up a few rough egdes, milling marks and give the trigger a chance. It very well may be a totally different deal after 150-200 rounds.
After you can shooter better than the Savage in capably you can sell it and get something better, like that will be anytime soon :p
I wouldn't go totally whacko on glass either, check out http://www.swfa.com they have a great selection.

Good luck and happy shooting..

Karsten
 
COOP...Thats a good point. There are several decent aftermarket triggers out there for the Mod 110 savage actions. I have used a Timney trigger in the past in my musgrave target rifle, currently I am using a davies which is made in Australia. I like the davies extremely well, however its cost was $175.00CAN.
The timney in my opinion is not bad for the price. I'm not sure if they make one for the Savage.

WaltlerGAII made a good point as well. The rem 700 VLS is cheaper than the VSS. Same barreled action, different stock.
Laminated stocks have regained in popularity in our neck of the woods for long distance shooting. As nice as the HS precision stock is, its not perfect. A good bedding job in the laminated stock will make it shoot as good or better than the synthetic.

Another point to keep in mind is the fact that a stainless steel barrel as compared to carbon steel will not only stay rust free for years, but will last longer. In competition, we now get twice the life out of a S/S barrel because of its resistence to throat erosion than carbon steel.
In 308 you should be able to get 3-4 thousand rnds before accuracy goes south. Carbon steel is about half that.

As a final note concerning glass. A precision rifle is useless without a precision scope. To clearly see your target and mirage over long ranges, you will need a scope with an adjustable objective. Furthermore, micrometer adjustable elevation and windage turrets are a must.
 
Question?

So, is the VLS barrel stainless? Meaning, can you blue or coat a stainless barrel? I thought you couldn't do that...
If so, then how would you tell a stainless barrel from a carbon one?
 
The VLS is a carbon steel barrel. Stainless cannot be blued in the conventional sense, although Ruger has applied some kind of grey looking finish to their stainless barreled MkII Target model which really looks good when its new, but I have no idea how well it wears. I bought a VS in 308 10 years ago and have put nearly 6,000 rounds through it, and it still holds 1/4 minute groups when I do my part with careful handloads. I have been careful not to overheat the barrel, and it is cleaned after every session in addition to running an occasional patch down it while at the range. Sporter weight barrels can be accurate, and heavy barrels can be inaccurate. Get the best quality rifle you can afford and it will in all likelyhood treat you as well as you treat it. If I were going to have just one rifle, I would want about as general purpose as I could get-meaning likely a stainless (for the wet weather), plastic stocked bolt action in a common caliber (30-06/308/270) that any country store would have in stock. We all have our desires, but plain vanilla still tastes good over a long period of time.
 
Thanks all for much help you've given me...

I am really leaning towards an ADL synthetic right now. About as basic as one can get. I am thinking that I won't need a scope(at least not at first), so I can spend more money on ammo for practice. Maybe, by the time I become a good (great) shot and the barrel is well worn, I will have more money to spend....

I will someday, with any luck, own an M1-A :)

FWIW- I am not seeing any stainless rifles with iron sights... That might be an option to the carbon variety.

Out -Coop

BTW- Someone mentioned never buying from WallyWorld... Is this a real concern? They seen to have decent prices...
 
I can't see anything wrong with buying from Walmart. I sent them a note of thanks for not caving in recently to the heavy pressure from the anti groups who were applying pressure. If you are going to buy something they carry, why not buy from them.

Most rifles end up having a scope on them. Especially those with a stainless barrel.
 
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