Heat-treating to mete

H

Harry Bonar

New member
mete:
What portion of the reciever does the gentleman heat-treat (I know the action ring) but does he do the entire front reciever ring? I assume he has a Rockwell "C" tester from your info. Or does he just do the inside lug area?
Do you know what temp he uses for decalescence? Do you know what carburizing medium he uses? I would really be interested to know! Rockwell 40 or 45 on "C" would be just right!
Thanks mete.
Harry B.
 
My M98 was done when I was in gunsmithing school in CO 30 years ago !! It was a local heat treater.....The steels they used [ 1030-1045 ] don't have the strength or hardness to be satisfactory for a receiver so they were case hardened. This added carbon to the surface permitting heat treating for a hard outer surface but tough softer core.War time quality resulted in mine being very hard in some areas and very soft in others !!....To re do it the heat treater in CO set up a procedure so that the surface was soft enough to drill , and considering the unknowns of type steel and original case thickness , was safe .I don't remember the details but it was satisfactory for me as a metallurgist.I assume they used gas not pack carburizing and I think they would do that today, it should be easier to control.A receiver today made typically of 4140 is hardened to 40-45 Rc and this gives us the best properties.:)
 
metalurgy

If you guys are near NJ or dont mind shipping parts .My family has a metalurgical facility in North NJ.they can carburize,nitride,case harden,anneal,induction harden.Full line of heat treating capabilities.If your interested in finding a heat treater feel free to contact me.They have been in business for over 100yrs.Gramps participated in the founding of the ASTM.they work with almost all steel alloys including stainless.Okedoke,just wanted to let you know.
ciao
 
can you give a price range

What kind of money would you be charging to heat treat a Mauser and bolt if you don't mind me asking? I have a couple that I am working on that might need it.
 
What parts are you looking to harden?You have to be careful,distortion can be a problem.call Nick @ Fred heinzelman and sons tell him Robert Heinzelman told you to call .he can better direct you on cost.Should not be much depending on how the parts have to be handled for heat treating to control distortion.
973 933 4800
 
Interesting specializations ! And he's on the board of directors of my old school Polytechnic University .:)
 
he was a poly tech freak. i think he is giving his first and last to penny poly.My father went to MIT.no one knows what its was like working with 3 perfectionist german engineers !
 
heat-treat

Gentlemen:
Please don't take what I say as argumentative. After much research and thought I, again, must come to the point of dissagreeing with the re-heat-treatment of Mausers.
I find the lack of details troubling in answer to my treating question, not that the gentleman is wrong or mis-led, but I know that "gas" alone will not accomplish a good "case" or carburizing, or "case-hardening" without an element of carbon being added!
The best case hardening was not done to achieve "colors" - it was done, and when done right gave a beautiful grey coloring to the actions and side plates of British doubles and such.
"Pack" hardening was done by "packing" charred shoe leather or some other carbon source in a powder, or such like, in the part treated and then bringing the mix up to the decalescence point (a point at which carbon steel becomes non-magnetic and has the pyrometer stops when in fact the part is absorbing heat, the reason for that is that a chemical change is taking place and the carburizing agent is transfering carbon to a surface).
This crucial information is lacking; also, the time in the furnace is lacking - the style and medium of quench is lacking!
This, not to be argumentative for sure is just my opinion: I find that many, so-called, "heat-treating experts", are just that - experts! An "ex" is a has-been and a "spert" is a drip under pressure.
Gentlemen, a real metallurgist, a real heat-treating expert knows all these things and does not just use "gas" with no carburizing agent evident, - and, no, I do not mean this as a personal indictment of any-one or any practice, but there are firms that will tell you NOT to attempt to heat-treat Mauser actions - if it's soft fellas, do what I do, beat the ring shut on the vise and get a good VZ24, which was hardened correctly the first time.
I must, as a matter of advice and good conscience warn, as I have before, against any attempt to re-heat-treat ANY Mauser action!
I think the practice is done by people with none or very little knowledge of heat-treating in general! I also feel that when you find a Mauser action that has NO set-back of the bolt lugs in action seats it is a good one since it's been fired many hundreds or thousands of rounds in war.
I also sound another warning: - The German loading for the 8X57JS was in the 50,000 CUP range - not 35,000 like U.S. loads. These VZ24s' can take those and greater pressures just fine if headspace is rigorously controlled.
Yes, some German actions were soft, the early ones and some of the late ones - let those go fellas - wall hangers - use the ones as the VZ24s' and you have no reason under the sun to bother them
Another factor; Most, if not all (except the Savage 110 action) factory AND military actions you will find with only ONE lug bearing most of the force! Proplerly detailing the action cures this.
Another warning: ROCKWELL TESTING ON MAUSER ACTIONS ISN'T WORTH THE PAPER IT'S PRINTED ON - YOU CANNOT TEST THE INNER ACTION LUG RECESSES WITH THE BRAIL OF A TESTER!
Hope I've not stirred the hornets nest but these are my own personal conclusions based upon 50 years experience and from reading the masters like Ackley and others.
Gentlemen - Harry B.
 
By the Way Harry the President of your alumni passed away on monday the 16th.Fred Heinzelman Jr. Metallurist. Alumni President Poly Tech University.
He would have been 92 2/16/06
72 years experience
 
72 years experience - he could have told a few interesting stories !!.....Harry , and others .Let me explain about GAS carburizing .If you take an oxy-acetylene torch or any other air/oxygen -fuel mixture you can adjust the ratio of the gases to be oxidizing [ oxygen rich], neutral, or reducing [carbon rich]. It's like setting an automobile carburator to a rich or lean mixture.The fuel a hydro-CARBON contains carbon.The carbon rich mixture will carburize the steel.It doesn't matter whether the carbon comes from a solid or a gas ,it's still carbon and will still carburize. Without going into the details , gas carburizing is more versatile....I'll also stand by my recommendation to reheat treat Mausers .It's a sad story when someone goes to great effort and expense to sporterize a rifle only to have it set back !!
 
receivers...

Kuhnhausen also recommends testing all receivers, regardless, as the "perfect" , unworn lug receiver may be brittle...
 
heat treating

Gentlemen"
I'm aware of torch settings but you still need a carburizing element!
Sorry, but I stand solidly on my post.
Best respectfully good wishes.
Harry B.

No less than Ackley says, "Rockwell testing figures on Mauser actions is not worth the paper their printed on - the braile of a Rockwell tester cannot test the lug area."
Testing the reciever ring or bottom tells you nothing about the lug recess hardness - on some Mausers an induction element was introduced into the lug area with a carburizing agent - treating the internal lug area only!

I stand solidly on my post! Gentlemen - only a carburizing element can produce a "case" thick enough to matter - "gas" cannot.
Again, I look askantly on so-called heat treaters who aren't aware of the real facts - I rest my case permanently.
Harry B.
 
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"One disadvantage of pack carburizing is that it is a batch process, which makes it time consuming and expensive. A second method of adding carbon to the surface of steel is gas carburizing. In this technique the part is placed in a furnace containing carbon monoxide, methane, ethane, propane, or a mixture of these gases. The part is then heated. The rate of absorption of carbon is much higher with this technique. A 0.04 to 0.05 inch case can be obtained in about 4 hours. The case thickness is more even and the thickness is easier to control than with the pack method."
 
I believe Ackley also said there was no value in hand lapping barrels, as all it accomplished was to wear the metal away sooner. We are all creatures of our time and technological familiars.

If you have ever lit an acetylene torch without any oxygen and watched all that lampblack soot floculating in the air above the flame, that's carbon. It is present in Mete's oxygen-starved flame and in adequate quantity to serve as the carburizing element.

Nick
 
heat treating

Dear Sirs:
American4guns is correct! That mixture of gases in a furnace will carburize low to medium steel - the entire action.
This is far different from adjusting an oxy/acetylene torch to a carbon rich flame, and I'm thoroughly aware of THAT type of hardening!
It takes a furnace with the ENTIRE action being carburized! You do not want the whole Mauser carburized, yes, some are and those are the ones that a drop on the floor will crack the thumb cut out! The reciever ring is the part that you want carburized to a depth that will prevent "set-back."
Let me illustrate this: A man brought his FR8 Mauser action to me - he had lost his cool and wrapped it around a post. It was barreled by me to 6MM REM years ago. The action was twisted, bent, the bolt head broken off but the reciever ring was in tack with the heavy barrel.
The action I first adjudicated to be junk but I used punches, etc., to finally straighten it and it is barreled, with a new bolt, to 25-06! It has been checked for cracks and test fired several times with normal effect.
This action was carburized correctly. The reciever ring was carburized INSIDE!
Gentlemen, I rest my case and this is my last post on this subject; I have one last question to ask! Why, when you find a Mauser action that has been fired thousands of rounds, probably in combat with marginal headspace that upon examination has NO set-back do we try to improve something that has no need of anything done to it but detailing; do we suspect that it will "set-back" later? Turkish and German ammo in 8X57JS was in the 50,000 cup range!
It is aparrent to me that the so called "re-heat-treaters" of Mausers have no real factual knowledge of the sophisticated process!
I repeat; if it has no set-back to start with it can be barreled to any modern caliber without a thought about it developing set-back later?
Added on to that it is impossible to Rockwell the lug area of Mausers - Ackley says, "it's not worth the paper it's printed on." Source: "Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders, Volume II, page 65 to 68."
Fellas, I recommend reading both Volume I and II.
I rest on my posts and this is my final post on this subject!
Rest at peace brothers! :D Harry B.
 
I think the point of flame carburizing is that you can localize it based on where you play the oxygen-starved flame. Maybe I've confused who was recommending which process? I sure don't want to be the one to have to devise a torch that reliably flame carburizes the inside of a Mauser receiver; that's for sure. Just trying to make certain we are remarking on the same processes.

I believe you can selectively coat steel with a high temperature wax that will mask coated portions from the carburizing gas in a furnace. Same stuff used to prevent scale by blocking of air access to the surface. I've got a can somewhere in my basement.

In any event, I agree with Harry that this is risky business for a gunsmith. I certainly wouldn't want to have to do one for somebody else, and would use a machine rest behind sandbags and a string and proof load to check one I had built for myself. A litigator's dream.

Nick

"According to police lore, lawyers were as resiliant as cockroaches, and one who had been decapitated could litigate for up to three days."

Carol O'Connell
Winter House
 
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