Headsup: Mil movements abound!
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Speaking as a member of the Nat Guard and veteran of the Air Force and Army, with many friends in different units: stop worrying about stories like this. They are all either fabrications or gross exaggerations of normal training operations.
My experience suggests that 98% of the military would refuse to fire on civilians, and the 2% that would don't have enough rank to worry about.
When the second Brady Bill was proposed, even before it was voted into hell, half my guard unit was maxing out credit cards to stock up on ammo in case a 1000 round limit was imposed.
My experience suggests that 98% of the military would refuse to fire on civilians, and the 2% that would don't have enough rank to worry about.
When the second Brady Bill was proposed, even before it was voted into hell, half my guard unit was maxing out credit cards to stock up on ammo in case a 1000 round limit was imposed.
Someone, I think it was the defense department, did a survey of Marines and asked if they'd fire on civilians if ordered to. 60% apparently said yes. I don't think it's far fetched at all that some would kill civilians, but I do think they wouldn't be doing it for long. Either they'd have a change of heart and eventually disobey orders, or they'd be killed by ticked off citizens and other soldiers.
If I were you, I'd worry more about the militarization of the police departments.
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
If I were you, I'd worry more about the militarization of the police departments.
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
Nightcrawler
New member
I'm in the Michigan Guards. Every man in my unit, justabouts, owns a gun. Don't worry. We know we're in this too.
One good point about our armed forces.... Nearly all our troops have families here in the States. I would think that would make it hard for them to be shooting families similar to their own and to those of their buddies.
For those of you IN the military, please keep the troops aware of our dwindling RKBA and efforts of their civilian friends and relatives to restore our Constitution.
For those of you IN the military, please keep the troops aware of our dwindling RKBA and efforts of their civilian friends and relatives to restore our Constitution.
Fast Eagle
New member
People,
The esprit de corps within the ranks of the military is so low at present; it’s almost humorous. I just returned from my bi-monthly mud moving session at NAS Lemoore. The scuttlebutt in the ready room of my squadron was and still is concurrent. If AlGore is elected it’s the end of the line for us. Most of us are on two-year contracts and will happily burn up what’s left and then migrate to the airlines, for twice the pay.
That’s 25 carrier qualified, combat ready Naval Aviators for those of you keeping score.
This lack of morale is not confined to officer level jobs, but is more prevalent in our enlisted men and women due to pay, benefits and time and length of deployments. Folks you’re military is leaving you in record numbers and the SecDef and his politico’s are out right lying to you when they say it’s not happening! It is happening and it’s all because of the current administration, they have done more to gut the military than any other administration we have ever had.
If AlGore were elected, the only thing that will maintain ranks would be a stopgap order or a draft. Now stopgap orders have been challenged in court and are within a very gray area. The Supreme Court was willing to hear the argument two years ago but the government withdrew the case and let 50 USAF Officers go home instead. Give you three guess’s why but the first two don’t count.
Now about a draft. Get real folks! Do you honestly think the average kid today would honor a draft notice? Do I need to remind you about Klinton and the draft? He is AlGore’s current boss.
Fast Eagle
Lt. CDR. USN Res.
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Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire
The esprit de corps within the ranks of the military is so low at present; it’s almost humorous. I just returned from my bi-monthly mud moving session at NAS Lemoore. The scuttlebutt in the ready room of my squadron was and still is concurrent. If AlGore is elected it’s the end of the line for us. Most of us are on two-year contracts and will happily burn up what’s left and then migrate to the airlines, for twice the pay.
That’s 25 carrier qualified, combat ready Naval Aviators for those of you keeping score.
This lack of morale is not confined to officer level jobs, but is more prevalent in our enlisted men and women due to pay, benefits and time and length of deployments. Folks you’re military is leaving you in record numbers and the SecDef and his politico’s are out right lying to you when they say it’s not happening! It is happening and it’s all because of the current administration, they have done more to gut the military than any other administration we have ever had.
If AlGore were elected, the only thing that will maintain ranks would be a stopgap order or a draft. Now stopgap orders have been challenged in court and are within a very gray area. The Supreme Court was willing to hear the argument two years ago but the government withdrew the case and let 50 USAF Officers go home instead. Give you three guess’s why but the first two don’t count.
Now about a draft. Get real folks! Do you honestly think the average kid today would honor a draft notice? Do I need to remind you about Klinton and the draft? He is AlGore’s current boss.
Fast Eagle
Lt. CDR. USN Res.
------------------
Sir, your remarks are repulsive to me, and I disagree with your viewpoints. But I will defend to my death your God given right to express them.
Voltaire
FastEagle,
Do you fly Hornets?
Everyone,
You need not worry about mysterious troop movements within CONUS.
The DoD is not going to suddenly invade itself. The goals of the Oligarchy are acheived in a sublte and gradual manner.
You need not worry about seeing the occasional forein military unit either. There are certain countries, who for various reasons, find it easier to train here in the United States.
For example, Singapore is simply too small goegraphicaly to effectively train it's airforce. They train here with us.
The Luftwaffe maintains training squadrons here as well. Many people have been alarmed by seeing some low and slow F4 Phantoms emblazioned with the black cross.
As for that 60% of questioned Marines...I theorize that those questioned weren't thinking of gunowners but instead of radical marxists throwing molotov coctails.
Do you fly Hornets?
Everyone,
You need not worry about mysterious troop movements within CONUS.
The DoD is not going to suddenly invade itself. The goals of the Oligarchy are acheived in a sublte and gradual manner.
You need not worry about seeing the occasional forein military unit either. There are certain countries, who for various reasons, find it easier to train here in the United States.
For example, Singapore is simply too small goegraphicaly to effectively train it's airforce. They train here with us.
The Luftwaffe maintains training squadrons here as well. Many people have been alarmed by seeing some low and slow F4 Phantoms emblazioned with the black cross.
As for that 60% of questioned Marines...I theorize that those questioned weren't thinking of gunowners but instead of radical marxists throwing molotov coctails.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
I'm in the Michigan Guards. Every man in my unit, justabouts, owns a gun. Don't worry. We know we're in this too.[/quote]
My best buddy is a Lt. Col. in the guard, full time. He's also my hunting partner. My partner when we teach NRA Basic Pistol classes. A volunteer hunter education instructor. And, obviously, a gun owner as well. He's on our side, and I'm sure there's lots like.
M1911
I'm in the Michigan Guards. Every man in my unit, justabouts, owns a gun. Don't worry. We know we're in this too.[/quote]
My best buddy is a Lt. Col. in the guard, full time. He's also my hunting partner. My partner when we teach NRA Basic Pistol classes. A volunteer hunter education instructor. And, obviously, a gun owner as well. He's on our side, and I'm sure there's lots like.
M1911
Fast Eagle
New member
Jarhead_22
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dangus:
Someone, I think it was the defense department, did a survey of Marines and asked if they'd fire on civilians if ordered to. 60% apparently said yes. [/quote]
Dangus, you're talking about Question 46, from a questionnaire that a Navy LtCmdr gave to a bunch of 7th MEB Marines at 29 Palms a few years ago, supposedly as research for his doctoral thesis. Check out: http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/q-46.htm
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Question 46. The stated scenario: The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms.
The statement that the U.S. Marines were asked to respond to:
I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
No opinion
Strongly disagree
Disagree
Agree
Strongly agree
The Responses
Of the 300 U.S. Marines asked this question, 264, or 88% of them responded.
The outcome of the survey was as follows:
Strongly disagree 127 42.33%
Disagree 58 19.33%
Agree 56 18.67%
Strongly agree 23 07.67%
No opinion 36 12.00%
Total: 300 100.00%
Summary of the responses to question 46.
The survey results indicated that 61.66% (42.33 + 19.33) said they would refuse to fire on U.S. citizens, whereas 26.34% (18.67 + 7.67) indicated they would fire. According to Lt. Cdr. Guy Cunningham, the author of the thesis and designer of the survey questions; "This particular question, unlike the others, elicited from 15.97 percent of the respondents with an opinion, either heavier pen or pencil remarks on their response or written comments in the margin space."
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Many commented that an an officer ordering them to fire on US citizens would be on the receiving end of fire himself.
Jarhead out.
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"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights."
--Major General Smedley D. Butler, U.S. Marine Corps
Someone, I think it was the defense department, did a survey of Marines and asked if they'd fire on civilians if ordered to. 60% apparently said yes. [/quote]
Dangus, you're talking about Question 46, from a questionnaire that a Navy LtCmdr gave to a bunch of 7th MEB Marines at 29 Palms a few years ago, supposedly as research for his doctoral thesis. Check out: http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/q-46.htm
-------------------------
Question 46. The stated scenario: The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms.
The statement that the U.S. Marines were asked to respond to:
I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
No opinion
Strongly disagree
Disagree
Agree
Strongly agree
The Responses
Of the 300 U.S. Marines asked this question, 264, or 88% of them responded.
The outcome of the survey was as follows:
Strongly disagree 127 42.33%
Disagree 58 19.33%
Agree 56 18.67%
Strongly agree 23 07.67%
No opinion 36 12.00%
Total: 300 100.00%
Summary of the responses to question 46.
The survey results indicated that 61.66% (42.33 + 19.33) said they would refuse to fire on U.S. citizens, whereas 26.34% (18.67 + 7.67) indicated they would fire. According to Lt. Cdr. Guy Cunningham, the author of the thesis and designer of the survey questions; "This particular question, unlike the others, elicited from 15.97 percent of the respondents with an opinion, either heavier pen or pencil remarks on their response or written comments in the margin space."
---------------------------
Many commented that an an officer ordering them to fire on US citizens would be on the receiving end of fire himself.
Jarhead out.
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"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights."
--Major General Smedley D. Butler, U.S. Marine Corps
It's the time before the desertions that worries me a bit. Still I know most folks in the military either go in good people, or get made good, so I'm not too worried about blatent attacks on civilians.
Really, the fear should be of the subtle changes in law and culture that slowly and strongly demonize people like us, to the point where people don't even notice it's wrong to kill or imprison us. That's a very real threat. It's happened a lot of times over the course of human history, and I hate watching people make the same mistakes again and again.
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
Really, the fear should be of the subtle changes in law and culture that slowly and strongly demonize people like us, to the point where people don't even notice it's wrong to kill or imprison us. That's a very real threat. It's happened a lot of times over the course of human history, and I hate watching people make the same mistakes again and again.
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
The last group of people I truly fear are America's soldiers. Most are good men who are doing something they feel is right; defending their countries. Yes, there would be a number who would fire on US citizens, just as there are a few nuts among the general population. I however have faith that these mental midgets would be quickly dealt with by their own, or by the general pop. You need to remember that there are millions of guns out there and even the most wimpy person can get pissed enough to act. US soldiers shooting down civilians could be that push. I think Santana was refering to massive troop movements during a time of crisis in the middle east. Not some domestic plot to keep BJB in office.
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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
Having been around Navy/Marines most of my life (and some of them "Old Corps" jarheads!) I can state with complete confidence that the vast majority of them would turn in their commissions before they would give such an illegal order. These men take their oaths to the Constitution _very_ seriously.
Just south of MCB Camp Lejeune is a small town called Verona. Every year, sometimes twice a year, Marines from Lejeune hold movements in the swamps and woods, their object to "take" Verona.
It's been going on since WWII and the local residents treat it like a circus - tourists even come to take photos of the men and equipment. As a youngster in the area 40 years ago, I can remember a kindly Marine lieutenant letting me sit on top of his tank while my mother took my picture. I still have that photo of me in my Boy Scout uniform, smiling under the tanker's helmet.
And not three years ago I was visiting my sister in the area when I heard that the "Verona Exercise" was going on. Sure enough, I took my son to see the tanks and men and he was just as thrilled as I was. My daughter also got a charge out of the woman lieutenant who commanded an LAV. "Girls kick ass" is one of her favorite sayings.
So when I began to see reports claiming that the Verona Exercise was part of some effort to subjugate the citizens, I could only laugh. It just ain't so.
Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC
Just south of MCB Camp Lejeune is a small town called Verona. Every year, sometimes twice a year, Marines from Lejeune hold movements in the swamps and woods, their object to "take" Verona.
It's been going on since WWII and the local residents treat it like a circus - tourists even come to take photos of the men and equipment. As a youngster in the area 40 years ago, I can remember a kindly Marine lieutenant letting me sit on top of his tank while my mother took my picture. I still have that photo of me in my Boy Scout uniform, smiling under the tanker's helmet.
And not three years ago I was visiting my sister in the area when I heard that the "Verona Exercise" was going on. Sure enough, I took my son to see the tanks and men and he was just as thrilled as I was. My daughter also got a charge out of the woman lieutenant who commanded an LAV. "Girls kick ass" is one of her favorite sayings.
So when I began to see reports claiming that the Verona Exercise was part of some effort to subjugate the citizens, I could only laugh. It just ain't so.
Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC
Fast Eagle
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shin-Tao:
7th MEB? I never saw the questionare.
Hornets are good to go. They're the American Fulcrum. I like how the M61 is centered in the nose.
Have you seen much of the Super Hornet?[/quote]
Having the Vulcan line of sight centered is good for aiming purposes, but having that little monster sitting just 4 feet infront of you will shake yer teeth out when plinking tanks!
I haven't seen much of the "Super-Flush" it's not scheduled to go into fleet till 2001 and RES-R.A.G's. won't see'em till 2005 or so. By then I'll be looking at retirement if GWB is elected, or I'll have about 3 year with a major airline if Al Gore goes in...
Fast Eagle
Voting for Bush. I like a good Bush!
7th MEB? I never saw the questionare.
Hornets are good to go. They're the American Fulcrum. I like how the M61 is centered in the nose.
Have you seen much of the Super Hornet?[/quote]
Having the Vulcan line of sight centered is good for aiming purposes, but having that little monster sitting just 4 feet infront of you will shake yer teeth out when plinking tanks!
I haven't seen much of the "Super-Flush" it's not scheduled to go into fleet till 2001 and RES-R.A.G's. won't see'em till 2005 or so. By then I'll be looking at retirement if GWB is elected, or I'll have about 3 year with a major airline if Al Gore goes in...
Fast Eagle
Voting for Bush. I like a good Bush!
MrMisanthrope
New member
RE Strayhorn: Having been around Navy/Marines most of my life (and some of them "Old Corps" jarheads!) I can state with complete confidence that the vast majority of them would turn in their commissions before they would give such an illegal order. These men take their oaths to the Constitution _very_ seriously.
The Oath is not recinded upon seperation. That is one of the best arguments for ex-military folks to use in the Gun Debate.
We took the oath and it is a Blood Oath. We cannot defend the Constitution if we are disarmed. We cannot protect the citizens if we are disarmed.
I will not be disarmed. I took The Oath.
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_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________
The Oath is not recinded upon seperation. That is one of the best arguments for ex-military folks to use in the Gun Debate.
We took the oath and it is a Blood Oath. We cannot defend the Constitution if we are disarmed. We cannot protect the citizens if we are disarmed.
I will not be disarmed. I took The Oath.
------------------
_______________________
HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
****
Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
_______________________
I'm glad to hear this coming from the Military folks 
Ok...here's what's going on in Tx...we are having a series of wargames and troop movements...testing the timetables for deployments from Ft Hood to Corpus Cristi..which is a new deployment port for them...here's the story from what I did today. [[i posted this elsewhere so it's a copy/paste] Fact is I like the military and I'm 'fond' of mil equipment, I tried to get into the Marines and the Army 3 times each. Even tried going thru ROT-C in kollige. but the hearing/diabetes thing ya know....]]
Well, donald Shimoda and i got together to drive around, take pictures....somehow
we ended up at the place that was reported with lots of mil equip and activity on a
lonesome highway at a truckstop in the middle of nowhere.
I shot a roll of film of the few things there...mil tankers, hummers, med hummers and
salvage trucks. most were green or desert. They had some equip under camo that,
until i walked up to them, looked like sand dunes with some greenery. Very nice set
up overall.
After the first roll using tele lenses I hid it and reloaded. Wondering if I was gonna
end up face down in the mud, I cautiously approached what appeared to be some
sort of point vehicle. It sat by the highway as if on lookout. [[We'd passed 6
hummers painted desert one towing a trailer of a sort about 20 miles back.]
I asked if I could go look-see. They got on the horn and a few minutes later a
gentleman from the armed services jogged over to give me a tour.
Turns out this whole thing..the wargames and troop movements around the state
are part of a deal to see how fast they can move troops from Ft Hood to Beaumont.
They move the equip to Beaumont [on the coast] and "act" like they are loading
ships. They figure it cost a million a day to actually load the ships and then they'd
have to unload so they park the proper amount of vehicles in the proper area
substituting for a 'ship'. The area of the truck stop is a refueling point for the Army.
nice guys that we met..lots of interesting info in many areas of mil equip and what's
going on. I'm sure donald can add to this when he makes it home and if comes on
this evening. I got some pics and was invited back in a couple of weeks to photo
some other vehicles...tanks and stuff as they come back thru.
Ok...here's what's going on in Tx...we are having a series of wargames and troop movements...testing the timetables for deployments from Ft Hood to Corpus Cristi..which is a new deployment port for them...here's the story from what I did today. [[i posted this elsewhere so it's a copy/paste] Fact is I like the military and I'm 'fond' of mil equipment, I tried to get into the Marines and the Army 3 times each. Even tried going thru ROT-C in kollige.
but the hearing/diabetes thing ya know....]]Well, donald Shimoda and i got together to drive around, take pictures....somehow
we ended up at the place that was reported with lots of mil equip and activity on a
lonesome highway at a truckstop in the middle of nowhere.
I shot a roll of film of the few things there...mil tankers, hummers, med hummers and
salvage trucks. most were green or desert. They had some equip under camo that,
until i walked up to them, looked like sand dunes with some greenery. Very nice set
up overall.
After the first roll using tele lenses I hid it and reloaded. Wondering if I was gonna
end up face down in the mud, I cautiously approached what appeared to be some
sort of point vehicle. It sat by the highway as if on lookout. [[We'd passed 6
hummers painted desert one towing a trailer of a sort about 20 miles back.]
I asked if I could go look-see. They got on the horn and a few minutes later a
gentleman from the armed services jogged over to give me a tour.
Turns out this whole thing..the wargames and troop movements around the state
are part of a deal to see how fast they can move troops from Ft Hood to Beaumont.
They move the equip to Beaumont [on the coast] and "act" like they are loading
ships. They figure it cost a million a day to actually load the ships and then they'd
have to unload so they park the proper amount of vehicles in the proper area
substituting for a 'ship'. The area of the truck stop is a refueling point for the Army.
nice guys that we met..lots of interesting info in many areas of mil equip and what's
going on. I'm sure donald can add to this when he makes it home and if comes on
this evening. I got some pics and was invited back in a couple of weeks to photo
some other vehicles...tanks and stuff as they come back thru.