Headspace in non-belted rifle cases

Bucksnort1

New member
A few days ago, I posted a thread regarding headspace in semi-auto handguns. I told of a situation where I fired a 45 GAP in a 45 ACP 1911. The cartridge fired but did not cycle the slide. I wondered if there was a safety issue. Someone replied with the following response.

"When the straight walled pistol case such as the.45 Auto shrink due to reloading or a wrong cartridge is fired such as a .40 S&W fired in a .10mm Auto case, the round will headspace off the extractor. It is not a safety issue but a reliability issue".

My question is. In non-belted bottle neck rifle cases, where headspace is set at the shoulder, will headspace be set at the extractor if the case is not perfectly re-sized? There must be some "wiggle room", when it comes to resizing cases, because die manufacturers instruct us to install re-sizing dies by screwing it down until it touches the shell holder (with ram up), lowering the ram then screwing the die down 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn. There is a lot of wiggle room between 1/4 and 1/3, which means the shoulder may never be re-sized to SAAMI specs. Any thoughts?
 
In non-belted bottle neck rifle cases, where headspace is set at the shoulder,
will headspace be set at the extractor if the case is not perfectly re-sized ?
An extrator holding onto the rim of a case does not become headspace.
That is simply the extractor holding the case against the bolt.

Guffey will tell you (correctly) that headspace is a chamber dimension (bolt face to ~mid shoulder in the chamber).
Others oft times refer to "cartridge" headspace as the distance from case base to ~ mid shoulder on the case.
Where those numbers are the same, you have "zero" excess headspace in that combined assembly of cartridge/chamber.

You want "some" excess for reliability: traditionally 1-2 thousandths or so for us anal handloaders using a
bolt rifle; and "more" than that for a gas gun. (How much more is a subject of spirited debate).

SAAMI specifies that rifle manufacturers cut the chamber within a tolerance of no less than a certain
minium headspace dimension, and no more than a certain maximum dimension.
(EX: 2.0487" to 2.0537" for the 30-06/Garand).
The die manufacturers will design their dies to size a case to the minimum number to ensure
cases will function in even the smallest of SAAMI spec chambers.

The only reason you are instructed to "screw the die 1/8** turn past ram contact" is to ensure that any
spring in the press cannot prevent that ram contact under resizing stress -- thereby ensuring a minimum/SAAMI case.



** all you care about is that the die remains seated against the ram under stress. That could be as
little as 1/16 turn for small/soft case in a massive press with very little spring, and 1/4 turn large/stiff
cases in weaker C-presses a with a lot of spring. Usually a slight "cam-over" effect tells you where
that point is for any specific press with any specific case.
 
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There must be some "wiggle room", when it comes to resizing cases, because die manufacturers instruct us to install re-sizing dies by screwing it down until it touches the shell holder (with ram up), lowering the ram then screwing the die down 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn. There is a lot of wiggle room between 1/4 and 1/3, which means the shoulder may never be re-sized to SAAMI specs. Any thoughts

Die manufacturers give you a method that produces functional ammo. No one who understands the process actually adjusts dies by those instructions. Almost all dies will size the brass shorter than SAAMI minimum if adjusted by those instructions.

The psuedo-standard for bolt rifles (as Mehavey said) is no more than 0.002 head clearance. Semi-auto is usually about 0.003.

Handgun rounds will headspace on the extractor because they usually have quite a lot of space. Rifles usually have a lot less head clearance than extractor "wiggle room" so they almost never will.
 
Also add in the use of "headspace" in the non-technical sense, meaning only the amount of room in the chamber for the round, holding it were it will fire.

As you noted from your .45GAP episode, a case with "excess headspace" (too short) may still fire in some guns.

Any gun, rifle or pistol that has an extractor that will hold the base of the round against the bolt face will fire it.

Guns where the round feeds up underneath the extractor are most likely to be able to do this. Guns where the round is chambered and the extractor has to snap over the rim, may not.

In a rifle, with a case too short, a "push feed" system might shove a too short case deeper in the chamber, where its too far forward for the firing pin to set it off, or even in extreme cases, for the extractor to grab the rim. (the case would have to be trememdously short, for this to happen, but it could, under the right conditions.)

In something like a Mauser 98, even a grossly short case would be held against the bolt face, and fired.

Obvioulsy, this only works when the case head is the correct approximate size, but sometimes, the stars line up...
 
Headspace

Mehavey, I love to watch TV programs about the Cosmos, space travel, stars and such and I really enjoy watching programs about the theory of relativity but sometimes, a topic is so complicated, I must re-watch it or re-read it or have it explained to me from another source before I grasp it. I enjoy things that don't fall into the "rocket surgery" or is that "brain science" categories. I've had to re-read your explanation several times but I think I have the gist of it.

You certainly straightened me out about headspace. I thought headspace was the distance between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge and nothing else.
 
`Can't resist....

then_a_miracle_occurs.jpg

:D
 
You certainly straightened me out about headspace. I thought headspace was the distance between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge and nothing else.


Technicaly, the distance between the breach face and the cartridge head is Head Clearance.
Head Space is exclusively the distance in the chamber from breach face to chamber shoulder datum point.
For decades though, almost everyone has referred to the corresponding dimension of the case, head to shoulder datum, as Case Headspace but it actually has no name whatsoever.
 
I have been looking at this wondering if it is worth the time and effort to respond.

Let me start off with a axiom: The cartridge case is a gas seal. It is not structurally strong enough to hold the combustion pressures and must be supported. Secondly, it is always operating above yield.

Reloaders and shooters seldom have to consider the engineering that it takes to support the case. Only when a firearm is improperly designed, and that is rare, do we find out what headspace means from a design perspective.

One of the first issues about supporting the case is how much of the case is allowed to stick out of the chamber. Unless you are going to knock the case out with a cleaning rod, there needs to be relief for the extractor, a bit of beveling to align the case, etc. So some of the case head is going to be sticking out of the chamber and it is my contention that action strength is best considered from a case support issue. Actions that support the case well are “stronger” than actions that leave a lot of case head unsupported.

You see, the case is the weakest link.*

The 40 S&W is a good example of something that went back due to poor case head support.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4918338&postcount=23

As you can see in the pictures early Glock 40 S&W chambers left more case head unsupported than later chambers. Too much of the thin case sidewall was being left unsupported and given the high pressures and thin case sidewalls of the 40 S&W, shooters were blowing case heads. If you Google this you can find a lot of pictures of blown sidewalls and case heads.
So, in my opinion, fundamentally, “headspace” is a measure of how much of the case head is sticking out of the chamber.

But, from a manufacturing and a home gunsmith viewpoint, how do you measure that?

Chamber headspace gages are made under the assumption that the action was properly designed with a proper amount of case head protrusion. This is something that is not discussed much by reloaders or shooters because they don’t have to consider this issue., but it makes measuring chamber headspace with a metal gage easy.

For us, with bottlenecked cases, headspace is a dimension between shoulder and base of a case. This is important and something that needs to be controlled in reloading. Cases can only stretch so much, lets say 0.006”. If a case stretches more than 0.006” than you run the risk of a sidewall separation. Hopefully we all know that with a bottlenecked case the shoulder blows out first and sticks to the front of the chamber. Then as combustion pressures rise, the case sidewalls stretch to allow the base to meet the bolt face. If the sidewalls have to stretch too much, the case will rupture.

Straight walled cases don’t have a shoulder, and for the GAP, the case head is sticking out of the chamber the same amount as the 45 ACP (I am assuming this) and assuming the GAP case head is the same construction as the 45 ACP, the chamber support is about the same. As long as the extractor holds the case against the breech face the firing pin can hit the primer and the cartridge will ignite.

You can understand that push feed mechanisms actually need a shoulder or something to stop the case from going up the barrel and being too far from the firing pin, but claw extractors will hold the things on the breech face regardless of chamber headspace.

This can be bad. A shooting bud of mine fired a 270 Win cartridge in classic M70 in 300 Win Mag. He did not notice the 270 Win cartridge rolling around on the bench, the claw extractor held it against the bolt face, and the case head blew because a 270 Win is much thinner than a 300 Win Mag.

* There are people who believe that the case is a load carrying member. They did not come up with this idea on their own, this was something they were taught. It all came about from the early 1900’s problems with the single heat treat 03 Springfields and the Army coverup of these problems. The 03 Springfield was properly designed to carry the full thrust of the cartridge case, but the single heat treat Springfields were not properly built. The Army built over 1 million structurally deficient rifles, kept them in service, issued them, sold them to Civilians, and whenever rifles blew up, blamed the blowups on the shooters. To give logic to this cover up, the Army created this theory that the case carries load and removes load from the bolt face. There was actually a method to this as at the time shooters were greasing their bullets, because the bullets fouled something awful. Grease eliminated the fouling. Instead of acknowledging that their defective rifles were at fault, the Army told people that grease in the chamber removed the friction between case and chamber (which is true) and thus, dangerously, increased bolt thrust, which is the lie,... sort of. In a properly designed rifle firing ammunition within specs, there is no problem with greased or oiled cases, but in a defectively designed or defectively built rifle, any bolt thrust is a problem. The Army was now able to scapegoat shooters and misdirect the problem they created. The authority of the US Ordnance Department is so high that no one has ever questioned this, the idea that anyone would so stupidly design a rifle to break at something less than the full thrust of the cartridge. Instead, you have generations of people faithfully adhering to the idea that the case is supposed to carry load, and there will be generations more will believe this in the future, such is their faith in the infallibility and inerrancy of the US Army Ordnance Department. In fact, even today, whenever any problem happens with an Army weapon, the first thing the Army looks for is an oil can to blame.
 
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The original poster has valid questions. Headspace varies according to design. Lots of good input. A cartridge case is a "Seal". When making a reamer, it is very important to get the neck area correct. If you look through the SAAMI specs for chambers, you will see that even though some cartridges use the same diameter bullets, the neck dimensions are different. This is because some cases have thinner necks (Usually lower pressure) to properly seal when fired.
In a way, the extractor can become a form of headspace. Most controlled feed actions will pick up and hold just about any rimless case that has the same rim diameter. This now becomes something like the way a rimmed case is headspaced, only with less than good results. A rimmed case does not care what the chamber specs are. The best answer is to look at the SAAMI specs when in doubt. There are too many variables to just sit around the campfire and ask someone. I have seen some amazing stuff when it comes to improper ammo inserted into a rifle.
 
In a way, the extractor can become a form of headspace. Most controlled feed actions will pick up and hold just about any rimless case that has the same rim diameter.
I hope this doesn't infer that just about any correctly dimensioned rimless case has its rim stop against the extractor claw from firing pin impact and is held there when fired as the case shoulder is clear of (not touching) the chamber shoulder in a properly dimensioned chamber.
 
Slamfire said:
So, in my opinion, fundamentally, “headspace” is a measure of how much of the case head is sticking out of the chamber.

I would have to disagree with that assessment.

Unsupported case head has nothing in the world to do with headspace.

Case in point, your example of the .40SW. The headspace for that cartridge has never changed and is a constant (within the allowances) among all guns. The problem with blown out case heads had to do with poorly designed barrels, probably the result of adapting 9mm frame designs to the 40SW in order to rush the first gun to market rather than designing a gun for the cartridge. The feed ramp intrudes too far into the case. The feedramp is corrected, the headspace is unchanged, and there's no more problem.

In rifles, the thickness of the extractor and the rim of the bolt head have more to do with how much case has to stick out of the barrel than anything else and they are unrelated to headspace. Different firearms designs will have more or less unsupported case head but identical headspace.

SAAMI spec only specifies the headspace dimension as a distance forward of the bolt face. Differences in the thickness of the boltface rim and/or extractor would effect how much of the case is unsupported by the barrel but this has no effect on headspace whatsoever.
 
Headspace gauges don't measure case protrusion past the barrel tenon or back edge of the chamber body.

In my opinion, "headspace" is probably the most misused, confused and misunderstood term of all firearms' dimensions. Depending on the cartridge and it's chamber, it's reference points vary. Only one of them is the same for all types; the breech/bolt face.
 
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That pretty much sums it up. BartB, you might be surprised just how many cartridges are held against the bolt face by the extractor without touching the shoulder of the case against the chamber. Most people get hung up on the fairly close tolerance of chamber specs and do not look at the case manufacturers tolerance. It is totally possible to have a chamber with bad dimensions and pass a headspace check with flying colors, or vice versa. Many a Mauser (Almost everyone I ever checked) failed a headspace gauge made to SAAMI specs. Nothing wrong with them, European specs and tolerances are different. Heck, even US military and SAAMI specs are different. You absolutely hit it right when you say that there is no applying a set rule to everything.
 
Brian is correct.
"Headspace" is a dimension, not a state of being.
It is measureable, and can (and should) be checked with machined Go/No-go gauges.

It gets confusing when people talk about a cartridge "headspacing" on the rim, or the mouth of the case. What they are saying is that particular feature on the case is what aligns the case to the chamber's fixed, non-changing headspace dimension.
 
charlie-brown.jpg

Egads... :rolleyes:

If "disrespect" can now be a verb, so can "headspace."

"A cartridge headspaces on the rim/shoulder/mouth/belt..." is a perfectly proper use of the word.

Said another way, "...the cartridge establishes its proper stop-point when seated in the chamber on the rim/shoulder/mouth/belt."

Yes, it's a noun as well.
Examples:

My 30-06 actual chamber headspace is 2.050". (specific rifle -- boltface to mid shoulder)
All 30-06's have an allowable chamber headspace range of 2.0487" to 2.0537" (Manufacturing specs/all rifles)
My 30-06 case headspace is 2.048" (specific case -- case head to mid shoulder)
My 30-06 headspace endfloat for that rifle with that case is 0.002".

Use the words "chamber," "case," and "endfloat," and there should never be any confusion.
 
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Okay, here's the way I was taught to adjust a sizing die for optimal case sizing in a BOLT ACTION RIFLE:

Fire some factory rounds in your rifle, then, adjust the die so it only sizes about 2/3 of the necks and fire them in the same rifle. Repeat with the same cases until there is some force closing the bolt on a reloaded round. Turn the die in until bolt resistance is minimal and turn the sizer die, say an extra tenth of a turn.

As those cases are fired and become stiffer by firing and re-sizing, bolt closure may become more difficult, so turn the die in a bit more until the older cases, (after sizing) still work with a satisfactory amount of bolt turn-down force.

Note that sizing cases with such minimal brass working should last longer, may require trimming less often, and not be as prone to case separation than those sized more. However, they may not chamber well in another rifle of the same caliber, especially one of different manufacture.

Note again: Rounds used in other types of actions, especially semi-autos, should not be sized in this manner.

Also: Hunting rounds should be sized for easy bolt turndown. I accomplish that mostly by using relatively new cases, not by turning the die in more on older ones.
 
What in the world does oversizing brass have to do with headspace? You can not change headspace dimensions by the amount of resizing you do on brass. By sizing the brass to fit only your rifle, you have created a wildcat cartridge.
 
That's a bit dramatic.

Unless your gun is not chambered to a SAAMI spec cartridge, sizing your brass to match it's chamber is not creating any kind of wildcat.

If your chamber is not SAAMI spec, you already have a wildcat. If it is SAAMI spec, you're just sizing your brass to some size within the SAAMI spec.

SAAMI headspace for the .308Win is 1.630-1.640. The same dimension on the case is 1.634-0.007, in other words 1.627-1.634. Brass sized anywhere in that range is within SAAMI spec.

If I had a rifle with a 1.640 chamber, you can bet I'd be sizing the brass somewhere close to 1.638, which is technically 0.004 out of SAAMI spec but I'm a lot more worried about safety and brass life than being 4 thou out of spec.

It'd be a pretty esoteric argument to say that my cartridges that are 0.004 longer than spec are a "wildcat".
 
Picher's sizing method:
Fire some factory rounds in your rifle, then, adjust the die so it only sizes about 2/3 of the necks and fire them in the same rifle. Repeat with the same cases until there is some force closing the bolt on a reloaded round. Turn the die in until bolt resistance is minimal and turn the sizer die, say an extra tenth of a turn.
That has traditionally been called "partial full length sizing." It was one of the methods Sierra Bullets' ballistic tech tried back in the 1950's doing all the popular fired case sizing methods known to reloaders. It had issues and did things that degraded accuracy. New cases produced better accuracy.

When the bolt binds a bit closing on a chambered round, it doesn't lock up into battery exactly the same way for each shot. That causes the back thrust on the bolt lugs and bolt face to not be the same for each shot. This is compounded when the bolt face and case head is not square with the chamber axis; especially when the high points of each are aligned. When those high points are 180 degrees out, the bolt closes easily.

Benchresters neck only sizing noticed their accuracy going south as soon as their cases started to cause the bolt to bind up. They had to full length size, or shoulder bushing size, their cases to set the fired case shoulders back enough to prevent the bolt from binding. Even with lapped lugs and squared bolt faces, this issue raised its ugly head every 4 to 5 reloads per case.

When a fired bottleneck case is full length sized enough to set its shoulder back a couple thousandths, they still center perfectly in the chamber when driven hard into the chamber shoulder. And the bolt closes easily on them going back into repeatable battery for every shot. And full length sizing with the whole neck squeezed down better centers the sized case neck on the shoulder. Even when the bolt face and case heads are not perfectly square with the chamber, little accuracy loss happens (maybe 1/8 MOA) as long as the bolt easily closes on a chambered round.

1/10th of a turn on a die moves its height over .007" which is a lot. One can easily change the amount a case is sized enough to make its headspace too short which will lead to incipient and later, full case head separation. A die turning its circumference point about 1/10th inch moves it about .002"; a much better step height change of the die.
 
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