headspace checking

ks_wayward_son

New member
Wow, I have been a busy bee, I guess. Fourth post or so within minutes...but I guess thats the only way to gain knowledge. Anyways, Madcrate mentioned to me a while back that Okie guages has a guage for checking headspace. Is this a straightforward procedure? I would think that it would be more efficient than to constantly have a smith check it for every rifle purchased.
 
You would need a different gauge set for each caliber - one size does not fit all. The Okie gauges are very easy to use and they are pretty affordable. IMO, they are a good deal if you are experiencing a problem and an even better deal if you collect 1 certain caliber (say you're a Mosin collector & have many rifles of the same caliber).
 
ks, we were talking about the Enfield .303. The .303 is an odd one in that there are two different specs for it. The SAAMI spec and the British spec, for the Enfield use the Brit spec. All you really need is the field gauge, .074. As long as the bolt well not close on the .074 field gauge your OK. The SAAMI field gauge for .303 is .070. The Okie field gauge is Brit spec .074.
 
Apologies for thread resurrection, but I was thinking about this issue a little more, as I've finally begun the thorough cleaning of my milsurps and getting them in shooting condition. Do you all say a field guage is the best for checking all calibers or is a no-go better for some calibers than others to ensure "tighter" tolerances? I will definitely get a guage for my Enfield and Mosin and eventually an 8mm for a mauser, but can't readily find a guage for 7.5X57 for the Swiss rifles. It would seem that one doesn't really have a choice at times but to allow a smithy to do the once-over; especially for obscure calibers.
 
but can't readily find a guage for 7.5X57 for the Swiss rifles
That's becasue it is a 7.5X55mm, not 7.5X57mm.
It would seem that one doesn't really have a choice at times but to allow a smithy to do the once-over; especially for obscure calibers
If you ask me, you would be better off just letting the smith do it all.
 
I wouldn't worry to much about a Swiss rifle having head space issues. That would be very rare to find.

Many mil-surps have had the original bolt swapped, those are the ones you need to confirm the head space on.
 
Again, GO and NO-GO gauges are used by gunsmiths and factories when assembling or repairing guns. They are, in effect, "factory specs." But rifles that have seen any significant use (like most milsurps) will fail the NO-GO test, yet be perfectly safe. The only gauge actually needed for used guns is the Field gauge (aka Field Reject gauge), which will let you know if the rifle is approaching a condition of excessive headspace that could prove annoying (separated cases) or dangerous (excessive case protrusion).

Jim
 
I have to agree with Mr. Keenan. The 8x57 mausers usually fail the no-go american gauge when they are perfectly fine to shoot. The Europeans don't use the same specs we do. Same with older U.S. military guns. The chamber specs and ammo specs were different.
 
I always wonder, what does a Modern Milsurper do when he checks the headspace on his surplus rifle and finds it incorrect?

Find a treasure trove of bolts and swap parts until he gets one in spec?

Pay a gunsmith to set back the barrel a turn?

Retire the rifle?

Keep shooting it with surplus ammunition because it hasn't blown up yet?

That last was the general approach back in the 1960s when surplus was not only cheap but could be shipped right to your front door. I never knew of a gun or shooter to be damaged by the practice. Heck, most of us had not read Hatcher's Notebook and didn't know or care what a headspace gauge was.
 
Re-read my post and watch the wording. Those gauges are set up so that failing the Field Reject test means that the rifle is APPROACHING a possible danger point, not that it is going to blow up on the next shot or even separate cases. It is like the wear strips on tires. If you see them (or the old penny test fails), you don't quit driving, but you do start checking the tire sale ads in the paper.

As to milsurps with excess headspace, that is not really very common. Before being sold off, most of those rifles were in their nation's war reserve, which means they were checked and determined to be serviceable. Bad ones were either repaired or scrapped. So, unless someone has been fooling with them, they are usually OK. Excess headspace is almost unknown in civilian rifles; they just aren't shot enough.

In brief, dangerous excess headspace is less a real problem than it is something to talk about on these sites, mostly by people who have no idea what it is.

In the majority of cases, the worst that happens is case separation, annoying but rarely dangerous in civilian life. In the military, a disabled rifle was a more serious situation, so they were more concerned with headspace.

It takes a lot of shooting to cause excess headspace, and even if a rifle fails the Field Gauge test it may well have hundreds of rounds to go before it even shows definite signs of excess headspace.

As to "failing" a NO-GO test, don't worry. To make another tire analogy, it is like calling Badyear tires and asking for tread depth specs. They tell you that the factory depth (for example) is .30" - .32". So you measure and as soon as the depth goes below .30", you scrap the tires. That is what you are doing when you use NO-GO failure to mean the rifle is no longer serviceable.

(IMHO, far more problems result from people working over milsurp rifles without knowing what they are doing, or people rechambering rifles without marking the new caliber on the barrel.)

Jim
 
Here's what I did:

Find a treasure trove of bolts and swap parts until he gets one in spec?

Here's why: a box of 5 stripped bolts was $60 and the only gunsmith who would even take the job to set back the barrel and rechamber wanted $200. The rifle was all matching but 14thou beyond a SAAMI Field Reject. We couldn't locate a Military Field gauge but it was obvious that the headspace was bad because the extractor kept jumping the bolt. I left it with the smith for 8 months and the work never got done. I figured even if I had to buy 15 bolts before I found one that would work, I'd be just slightly ahead. The first box had one that hit SAAMI Go and was in pretty good shape. I traded the rest of the bolts for some used brass and a thousand Wolf primers when primers were all but unobtainium.

And, the barrel is so worn that a 175gr 7mm bullet just barely will hold 7 MOA, but it's a SCW short rifle and it has character so I bought it an equally POS correct bayonet.;)
 
Hi, rr2241tx,

"...it was obvious that the headspace was bad because the extractor kept jumping the bolt."

I'm confused as to what that means and how it indicates bad headspace.

Jim
 
I absolutely agree with Jim Keenan. There is way too much misinformation about head spacing military surplus guns. Most foreign and even some U.S. military guns are not even using the same points to call head space that SAAMI does. Military brass is different so why would the chamber specs be the same?
 
A bit long, but here is something I wrote a while back on headspace; you might find it interesting (or not).

To begin with, the "head" of a cartridge is its base or back end. That's why the markings on the back of the cartridge case are called the "headstamp".

So, headspace is simply the space for the "head" of the cartridge. In a rimmed cartridge, this is obvious, but for all cartridges, it really is a measurement of the room for a cartridge from the bolt face to whatever stops and supports it in the chamber. For rimmed cartridges, that is the front of the rim; for belted cartridges, it is the front of the belt. For cartridges like the .308, measurement is taken from a specified point on the shoulder; for a cartridge like the .45 ACP, the measurement is from a sharp shoulder which abuts the case mouth. So we say that a .308 headspaces on its shoulder, and that a .45 headspaces on its case mouth. For our purpose here, we will assume that the gun is a rifle in .308 Winchester, but we need to know that headspace is a factor in pistols, revolvers, and shotguns as well.

Some headspace is absolutely necessary; if no tolerance is allowed, operation of the rifle may be difficult or impossible. But while there is a correct range, headspace can be wrong in either direction. If there is insufficient headspace, a cartridge will either be difficult to chamber or will not chamber at all. In combat, this could spell disaster more certainly than excessive headspace.

What problems can result from excessive headspace? The answer is in what happens when a rifle cartridge is fired. The front of the cartridge case is made thin, because it needs to expand to seal the chamber and prevent high pressure gas from coming backward. But that thinness means that under pressure the case will grip the chamber walls very tightly. The rear of the case, being thicker, will not expand, and the pressure will push it backward as far as it can until the breechblock or bolt stops it. The case will stretch. It is nearly impossible to prevent some case stretching; if the gun is to operate normally, there must be some play between the bolt and its locking mechanism. But if the stretching is such that it exceeds the elastic limits of the case material, the case will tear apart. At best, this will leave the front part of the case in the chamber and hang up the gun. At worst, high-pressure gas will be released into the system and possibly damage the gun or injure the shooter.

Some folks confuse excess headspace with an oversize chamber, and think that excess headspace can be handled by reloading without full length resizing of cases. That is true if the case has simply expanded into an overlarge chamber, as it will do if the case head is held by the extractor. Even if headspace is excessive, and the breechblock can actually back up, neck sizing can delay the inevitable, but not prevent it. The condition will worsen with firing until no care in reloading can compensate, the case head will protrude too far from the chamber, and the case will bulge and blow out, with the pressure release wrecking the rifle and possibly injuring the shooter. No one should be deluded into the belief that excess headspace is not dangerous, or that reloading techniques will correct it.

Why are measurements needed? Why are two measurements necessary? Why not make every chamber of every gun to the exact dimensions required?

The answer involves the nature of machine work. Chambers are reamed with a tool called (surprise!) a reamer. If only one rifle were to be made, it would be possible to make a reamer to the exact dimensions and it would cut an exact chamber. But in mass production, it doesn't work that way. The designer of a cartridge specifies certain tolerances, based on his knowledge and, to some extent, the anticipated use. When a reamer is made to cut chambers for that cartridge, the reamer is made to the outside tolerance, or the largest allowable size. As chambers are cut, the reamer wears, and when it becomes dull, it is sharpened. This continues until the chamber is at the smallest allowable point, when the reamer is discarded and a new one used.

This system introduces one element of variation in cartridge chambering. The other is simple wear. When a rifle fires, the pressure generated inside the cartridge case pushes back the case, which then pushes back the bolt, which then pushes on the locking seats in the receiver. After a while, the bolt lugs and the receiver wear enough from this pressure, combined with the friction of normal operation, that the bolt can move more than desirable under pressure, and we say that headspace has become excessive.

Now, remember that reamer that was used to cut chambers? Well, it is not the only reamer involved. Reamers also cut the chambers on tools used to manufacture ammunition, and they are used and sharpened the same way, so the size of the ammunition can vary. Reloaders use sizing dies that are also made by reamers, and those reamers are made and used the same way. In factory production ammunition is made to tolerances, so some cartridges may be said to be "long" and others "short" even in the same batch.

Now, when a rifle barrel is made it is either not chambered at all, or given a "short" chamber. Unchambered barrels are used by gunsmiths to build rifles for custom cartridges. Short chambered barrels are used where the final caliber is known, but it is desirable to adjust headspace after installation of the barrel and selection of a bolt. Two gauges (or gages) are used at the factory and by gunsmiths to ensure that the chamber and bolt are within specifications for the cartridge. These are called the "GO" and "NO-GO" gauges. Their use must be understood in terms of the tolerances of the cartridges that the rifle will use.

The GO gauge ensures that the rifle will close and operate with the longest cartridge that is within tolerances for the ammunition. The NO-GO gauge ensures that the shortest cartridge that is within tolerances will not be allowed to stretch far enough to exceed the elastic limits of the case material.

But we mentioned that normal use of the rifle will cause changes in the dimensions of the locking system and the locking seat(s) in the receiver. That fact led to the development of a simple "one gauge" test to ensure that the rifle has not become dangerous. This test is by use of a FIELD gauge. A rifle that accepts a FIELD gauge may be nearing, at, or past the danger point; the only way to know which is by knowledge of that rifle, or by the "feel" of the gauge. At best, failure of the FIELD gauge test delivers a warning, like the wear ridges on tires. At worst, it signals certain danger. Even a rifle that fails the FIELD gauge test may function normally with cartridges at the long end of the cartridge tolerance, yet be dangerous with cartridges at the short end.

The term "FIELD gauge" should not be taken to mean "the field" in a military sense. No one calls "time out" in battle to check soldiers' rifles with a FIELD gauge. In this sense, FIELD simply means any place outside the factory, such as a depot or an arms room.

Another point of concern is how long a normal rifle will last, in terms of rounds fired, before headspace needs to be checked. For most shooters, the answer is, "Don't worry about it." The fact is that most rifle owners will never live long enough to see their rifles develop excess headspace. But in military service, especially in "familiarization" firing, rifles wear out rapidly, and headspace checks are routinely carried out. Match shooters too, who often fire tens of thousands of rounds a year, will check headspace every few months.

In most cases, headspace should be checked every few thousand rounds, just to be on the safe side. But the reality is that barrels will usually wear out before headspace becomes a problem, and many match rifles have had several barrel replacements with the same receiver and bolt. Since a new barrel will be final chambered on the rifle, the headspace will always be reset at the time of barrel replacement. If bolt or receiver wear makes it impossible to obtain proper headspace, the worn part is scrapped.

Jim
 
We are talking military surplus here. A SAAMI .308 gauge and a military .308 gauge are not the same. They do not even use the same points on the chamber to call head space. I suspect that all U.S. military ammo and chamber specs are different than SAMMI specs. Look at the way most Enfields and Krags blow out modern box ammo. Even government 30.06 ammo has a case so thick that it won't chamber without force in a modern tight chambered rifle.
Anyway, that is how you get into trouble. A gun with max body chamber diameters and max headspace using ammo on the low end of tolerance for dimensions that are not designed for that chamber. I don't remember where I read it, but there was a warning about British .308 chambers and U.S. ammo.
Maybe someone here saw it also?
 
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