hd shotgun. 20 ga. vs 12 ga.??
- Thread starter cajun47
- Start date
Within the confines of the actual home, I don't see a disadvantage to the 20 guage. Actually a lighter gun with lower recoil would seem to be a big advantage.
Outside the house, there are some situations which would give the 12 guage the advantage. Longer ranges usually requires more shot given equal choking.
Outside the house, there are some situations which would give the 12 guage the advantage. Longer ranges usually requires more shot given equal choking.
Rampant_Colt
New member
Massad Ayoob wrote a most excellent article about the versatility of the 20 gauge shotgun worth checking out:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html
Rampant_Colt
New member
Why modified choke? You just contradicted your own statement.
I wouldn't suggest using birdshot for defensive scenarios, unless you meant number 4 buckshot, which isn't available in 20ga.. Number 3 buck (conversely number 2 buck as well) seems like a good combination of pellet count and pellet diameter (.25) for the overblown indoor overpenetration issue.
Here's a good article about shotgun ammo performance:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Lighter gun equals less recoil? Actually a 20 gauge that is as heavy as a 12 will recoil just a little less than a 12ga.
A 20 that is proportionately lighter than the 12ga. big brother will recoil as much or possibly more than the 12ga. with equal "Dram Equivalent" and FPS of a proportionately equal payload weight...
A single shot lightweight 20 gauge break action will recoil significantly more than a fully loaded Mossberg 500 12ga and MUCH more than the even heavier steel framed 870...
Brent
A 20 that is proportionately lighter than the 12ga. big brother will recoil as much or possibly more than the 12ga. with equal "Dram Equivalent" and FPS of a proportionately equal payload weight...
A single shot lightweight 20 gauge break action will recoil significantly more than a fully loaded Mossberg 500 12ga and MUCH more than the even heavier steel framed 870...
Brent
I actually meant #4 bird shot and a modified choke. Why? At most distances within a home the modified choke will keep the shot in a very tight pattern. My 500 with a 20" barrel and a modified cylinder choke patterns about 4" at 30ft. I honestly don't know of many houses where you'd be shooting further than 30 ft.
At that distance the #4 bird shot punches holes through 3 sheets of plywood with 2 sheets of drywall sandwiched between each sheet of plywood. I'd say that's enough to put a human down.
#4 buckshot is quite effective and in an HD situation you can shoot it out of an open cylinder and still be quite effective - I'd load it myself but I can't get my wife to shoot the shotgun if its loaded like that so I have to load it to be most effective with what she will shoot. I know recoil, noise etc. wouldn't be much different but she comes from an anti-gun progressive family and its taken me years of coaxing and education to even get her to consider shooting a gun... now she's at least willing to go for a shotgun and/or AR for HD.
At that distance the #4 bird shot punches holes through 3 sheets of plywood with 2 sheets of drywall sandwiched between each sheet of plywood. I'd say that's enough to put a human down.
#4 buckshot is quite effective and in an HD situation you can shoot it out of an open cylinder and still be quite effective - I'd load it myself but I can't get my wife to shoot the shotgun if its loaded like that so I have to load it to be most effective with what she will shoot. I know recoil, noise etc. wouldn't be much different but she comes from an anti-gun progressive family and its taken me years of coaxing and education to even get her to consider shooting a gun... now she's at least willing to go for a shotgun and/or AR for HD.
Ayoobs article is seriously flawed. a 7/8 oz or one ounce 12 gauge round is spoken of as though that is standard; 5/8 for 20 gauge. More like 9/8ths or even 10/8ths for the 12 and 7/8ths for the 20. His velocities cited are also as bad; I wonder where you buy a 20 gauge 3" 5/8 oz load @ 1400-1600 fps. For those in the know, it is plain to see that shotguns are a distant third in his knowledge base. The base premisis are valid but he opens the article to accusations of lacking credibility due to the very flawed information presented. Those errors are made worse by his mentioning having been an editor for various publications. It makes one question how much other bad information was passed off as credible in the past.
That said, the 12 enjoys the advantage of load choices. You can go from reduced recoil 9 pellet OO buck @ 1150 fps. in 2 3/4" shells up to 15 pellet OO Buck @ 1100 fps in 3" in most guns and several permutations of pellet count and speed in between. You also can chose #4, #1, O, OO, & OOO buck shot from the major manufacturers again with variations of pellet count and velocity for some of these choices. With the 20 your choice is pretty much #3 Buck with Federal also offering #2 Buck but only in the 3" shell. Federal is (to my knowledge) the only one offering a reduced recoil load at this time which is also the only #4 buck offering.
A 20 gauge is usually a fair bit lighter so someone who may have issues holding up a 12 gauge for any period of time will more likely be able to hold the 20 up easier and longer.
At typical household distances, the person on the other end is not likely to notice or care about the minutia of the ammo differences when looking at the wrong end...especially if that end has lead coming out.
That said, the 12 enjoys the advantage of load choices. You can go from reduced recoil 9 pellet OO buck @ 1150 fps. in 2 3/4" shells up to 15 pellet OO Buck @ 1100 fps in 3" in most guns and several permutations of pellet count and speed in between. You also can chose #4, #1, O, OO, & OOO buck shot from the major manufacturers again with variations of pellet count and velocity for some of these choices. With the 20 your choice is pretty much #3 Buck with Federal also offering #2 Buck but only in the 3" shell. Federal is (to my knowledge) the only one offering a reduced recoil load at this time which is also the only #4 buck offering.
A 20 gauge is usually a fair bit lighter so someone who may have issues holding up a 12 gauge for any period of time will more likely be able to hold the 20 up easier and longer.
At typical household distances, the person on the other end is not likely to notice or care about the minutia of the ammo differences when looking at the wrong end...especially if that end has lead coming out.
Last edited:
About the only difference is a wider variety of loads available for the 12. Otherwise, not much difference, and there are 'enough' choices available for the 20 that it will matter mostly to purists. For some shooters a 20 will work better just because it's lighter overall. And there are a few youth variants available in 20 that are pretty much tailor made for smaller shooters.
970, I note a few serious flaws in your riposte to Ayoob's data and opinions.
No one I know in the field recommends or uses 15 pellet 00, 3 or 3.5" loads.
Opinions are divided on whether 8 pellet (1 oz) or 9 pellet (1 1/8 oz) 00 loads are best, but no one discounts either's effectiveness on soft targets.
For that matter, the 6 pellet 00, 1200 FPS experimental loads I developed seem more than minimally effective at house distances and kick little, but being handloads should not be utilized in any situation with legal consequences possible.
20 gauges may, as you correctly write, be easier to hold up, but oft these are vicious kickers with buck loads. The 20 gauge 870 here is rough with slugs and buck, and I am not easily thumped.
BTW, the few exchanges I've had with Ayoob shows him well versed in matters Shotgun. I'm inclined to think that 5/8 thing was a typo.
No one I know in the field recommends or uses 15 pellet 00, 3 or 3.5" loads.
Opinions are divided on whether 8 pellet (1 oz) or 9 pellet (1 1/8 oz) 00 loads are best, but no one discounts either's effectiveness on soft targets.
For that matter, the 6 pellet 00, 1200 FPS experimental loads I developed seem more than minimally effective at house distances and kick little, but being handloads should not be utilized in any situation with legal consequences possible.
20 gauges may, as you correctly write, be easier to hold up, but oft these are vicious kickers with buck loads. The 20 gauge 870 here is rough with slugs and buck, and I am not easily thumped.
BTW, the few exchanges I've had with Ayoob shows him well versed in matters Shotgun. I'm inclined to think that 5/8 thing was a typo.
Dave,
I never recommended using 15 or 18 pellet OObuck loads, I pointed out that one could do it. Please reread that part. As you are well aware, there have been many posters in the past that state that they do in fact load them in their gun. I was merely pointing out that the 12 gauge has the advantage of load diversity going for it with loads that range from mild to wild.
Second, if you read the article the load weights mentioned are repeated so it does come off as more than a single typo. It begs the question of accuracy of the information. Note I also said:
As far as kick in a shotgun is concerned; that does matter in practice at the range. But in the real world at 0:dark30 when the adrenalin hits as you are facing an intruder, you won't notice it. When the adrenalin is wearing off and you are waiting for the P.D. to arrive, weight can become a factor if you have someone proned out. I have lived in a place where a 45 minute response was fast. I also have tested the kick theory in an apples to apples comparison. I have two Fabarm Silver Lion Cubs both with 26" barrels. One is a 20 gauge, one is a 12. It's kind of hard to get closer than that. Although my test was personal and subjective, it was no ultralight reduced recoil load in a 12 gauge semiauto with a limbsaver butt pad vs. a 3" 20 load in a single shot with plastic butt pad.
End threadjack
I never recommended using 15 or 18 pellet OObuck loads, I pointed out that one could do it. Please reread that part. As you are well aware, there have been many posters in the past that state that they do in fact load them in their gun. I was merely pointing out that the 12 gauge has the advantage of load diversity going for it with loads that range from mild to wild.
Second, if you read the article the load weights mentioned are repeated so it does come off as more than a single typo. It begs the question of accuracy of the information. Note I also said:
Massad may actually be well versed in shotguns but the article linked does not come across that way.
As far as kick in a shotgun is concerned; that does matter in practice at the range. But in the real world at 0:dark30 when the adrenalin hits as you are facing an intruder, you won't notice it. When the adrenalin is wearing off and you are waiting for the P.D. to arrive, weight can become a factor if you have someone proned out. I have lived in a place where a 45 minute response was fast. I also have tested the kick theory in an apples to apples comparison. I have two Fabarm Silver Lion Cubs both with 26" barrels. One is a 20 gauge, one is a 12. It's kind of hard to get closer than that. Although my test was personal and subjective, it was no ultralight reduced recoil load in a 12 gauge semiauto with a limbsaver butt pad vs. a 3" 20 load in a single shot with plastic butt pad.
End threadjack
Read this it will help you decide..
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
A Remington 870 in 20 ga weighs 6.5 lbs. A 12 ga weighs 7.5 lbs. Do the math and you will find that the 20 actually recoils more with any load suitable for SD, and offers you less performance downrange.
If you want a gun that is lightweight and easy to carry for miles in the field, buy a 20. For a SD gun buy a 12. You can always find reduced loads but anything that is suitable for SD in either is going to have some recoil.
This is one reason why AR-15 carbines have almost completely replaced the shotgun in LE and military use. Why get 300 mag recoil levels in a heavy cumbersome gun with limited firepower when the 5.56 round is just as effective from a rifle half the size with 1/4 the recoil and 6X the ammo capacity.
If you want a gun that is lightweight and easy to carry for miles in the field, buy a 20. For a SD gun buy a 12. You can always find reduced loads but anything that is suitable for SD in either is going to have some recoil.
This is one reason why AR-15 carbines have almost completely replaced the shotgun in LE and military use. Why get 300 mag recoil levels in a heavy cumbersome gun with limited firepower when the 5.56 round is just as effective from a rifle half the size with 1/4 the recoil and 6X the ammo capacity.
I strongly disagree. Where is the fact backing that statement?
It is extremely hard to beat a 12 gauge shotgun at close range. I think a top competitor for close quarters combat is the Kriss Super V - a compact fully automatic 45 acp with little recoil is a close quarters combat dream. AR-15's replacing shotguns in LE and military - no
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
It seems to me you can get a 12 ga load that mimicks any 20 ga load and it will often be cheaper than the 20 ga load.
Apples to apples, 970, the 20s here kick more than the 12s. And kick is partly muzzle jump, more jump means more time before you can fire on the next target. That little 870 20 is goodnfast,though, quail gun quick.
Kick also can deter folks from practicing. BAD idea.
In a defensive shotgun, whether or not it will take the 3 inch and more howitzer loads is a non issue. Even 8 or 9 pellet loads could be more than needed.
Mass is fecally cognizant. His editor may not be so well educated.....
Kick also can deter folks from practicing. BAD idea.
In a defensive shotgun, whether or not it will take the 3 inch and more howitzer loads is a non issue. Even 8 or 9 pellet loads could be more than needed.
Mass is fecally cognizant. His editor may not be so well educated.....
The 20 gauge would be fine if it's all you have. Any gun is better than no gun at all. I say get whatever you feel comfortable with. A 20 gauge shooting 2 3/4 target loads is more than likely going to put a stop to the intruder I'm willing to bet. I'd rather use a 12 gauge though and contrary to popular belief, they do not kick hard at all. I use whatever the factory chokes are. Can't remember what they are but the smallest I think is modified. I use 2 3/4 Federal 000 for home defense.
Apples to Apples. Remington 870 Wingmaster 28" barrel for BOTH gauges. Per Remington 12 Gauge 7 lbs. 20 Gauge 6.25 lbs.
Standard buckshot loads for both.
12 ga. 9 pellet OO Buck. Shot load of 486 gr. @ 1330 fps.
20 ga. 20 pellet #3 Buck. Shot load of 470 gr. @ 1200 fps.
For powder charge in the calc. I used Herco as there are published loads for both. Charge weight:
12 Gauge 30 gr. 20 Gauge 19 gr.
12 Gauge: 100.9 lb. fps. Momentum, 14.4 fps. Velocity, 22.6 ft. lbs. Energy
20 Gauge: 85.5 lb. fps. Momentum, 13.7 fps Velocity, 18.1 ft. lbs. Energy.
In a heads up Apples to Apples comparison by the numbers using standard velocity and weight the 20 Gauge has less recoil energy in all categories. You can of course game the numbers by changing guns or ammo in one and not the other but in equal guns with equal ammo, the 20 still has less numerical kick. Felt on the otherhand is subjective.
* If you say I forgot the wadding, bear in mind that the divide on the numbers grows when that additional weight is added in favoring the 20 gauge.
# Pellet charge weight compliments of Ballistic Products Buckshot Loading III.
Standard buckshot loads for both.
12 ga. 9 pellet OO Buck. Shot load of 486 gr. @ 1330 fps.
20 ga. 20 pellet #3 Buck. Shot load of 470 gr. @ 1200 fps.
For powder charge in the calc. I used Herco as there are published loads for both. Charge weight:
12 Gauge 30 gr. 20 Gauge 19 gr.
12 Gauge: 100.9 lb. fps. Momentum, 14.4 fps. Velocity, 22.6 ft. lbs. Energy
20 Gauge: 85.5 lb. fps. Momentum, 13.7 fps Velocity, 18.1 ft. lbs. Energy.
In a heads up Apples to Apples comparison by the numbers using standard velocity and weight the 20 Gauge has less recoil energy in all categories. You can of course game the numbers by changing guns or ammo in one and not the other but in equal guns with equal ammo, the 20 still has less numerical kick. Felt on the otherhand is subjective.
* If you say I forgot the wadding, bear in mind that the divide on the numbers grows when that additional weight is added in favoring the 20 gauge.
# Pellet charge weight compliments of Ballistic Products Buckshot Loading III.