HAZMAT
- Thread starter Chuck3006
- Start date
Stuff that can burn burns. Primers go "pop".
I spent over 30 years as a Nuclear Chemical Operator, and more than a few of those were spent doing chemical management at a major Govt site, and this required more than a passing knowledge of Chemical properties, CFR regulations, and company procedures, and DOT regs. Inventory and safe storage inspections, also shipping requirements including proper spacing and the placarding on the truck. Was also highly trained in hazmat spill response and other emergency procedures.
Most of the shipping requirements are intended to minimize hazards in the event of an accident. Proper containers, spill containment, separation (distance) when certain things were loaded on the same truck, things like that.
Check it out and you'll see that smokeless powder is a flammable solid. (and so is paper and many other things...
) Primers are a class of explosive, and black powder is another class of explosive. Now, here an "interesting" point, the shipping requirements, what a shipping company had to do by LAW were in place many years (perhaps decades?) BEFORE some bright fellow in the shipping industry figured out they could charge the consumer extra for doing what the law required them to do.
Prior to "HAZMAT FEES" shipping companies simply absorbed the extra cost of compliance with the law, including it in the shipping costs.
TODAY, they charge the consumer extra for doing that.
some say that's progress. For the shippers, I guess it is....
FrankenMauser
New member
I don't know of a specific incident, but I am sure that it has happened.
Delivery and transport vehicles suffer problems every day.
As mentioned above, it is more about what happens when there is an incident, than it is about the danger of having the goods in motion.
Federal lost an entire trailer full of .308 GMM about 15 years ago.
Wasn't the ammo's fault. It was a brake fire that burned through the floor.
But because the cargo was flammable and firefighters didn't want to get close, the entire rig burned to the ground.
Delivery and transport vehicles suffer problems every day.
As mentioned above, it is more about what happens when there is an incident, than it is about the danger of having the goods in motion.
Federal lost an entire trailer full of .308 GMM about 15 years ago.
Wasn't the ammo's fault. It was a brake fire that burned through the floor.
But because the cargo was flammable and firefighters didn't want to get close, the entire rig burned to the ground.
stagpanther
New member
Probably has nothing to do with the material itself--and everything to do with simply charging extra shipping fees wherever possible. When the processing center receives packages that say hazardous materials or handle with care--what I think happens much of the time is that they read that as "let's toss it around and crush it to see what happens."
I once had a shipment of laboratory-grade hydrochloric acid delivered--the box was correctly tagged with all the warning signs but was obviously damaged. Delivery driver brought it to my door. The box was crushed (but luckily the very thick glass and foam padding did their jobs)--she told me hazmat stuff was routinely packed at the bottom of the pile as standard procedure. It was also pouring rain.
I asked her if she any idea what was in the box and what would happen if it got exposed directly to water. She said she didn't have the slightest idea. I'm sure nobody did along the entire shipping chain.
I once had a shipment of laboratory-grade hydrochloric acid delivered--the box was correctly tagged with all the warning signs but was obviously damaged. Delivery driver brought it to my door. The box was crushed (but luckily the very thick glass and foam padding did their jobs)--she told me hazmat stuff was routinely packed at the bottom of the pile as standard procedure. It was also pouring rain.
I asked her if she any idea what was in the box and what would happen if it got exposed directly to water. She said she didn't have the slightest idea. I'm sure nobody did along the entire shipping chain.
There is actually a small degree of sense in this.
Not GOOD SENSE, and not well thought out, but a small amount of sense, if you consider that generally speaking, when something leaks, gravity pulls the material DOWN. SO a leaking package on the bottom of the pile is less likely to interact with the items above it.
BUT, putting weight on top of a package of hazardous chemicals is STUPID, and INCREASES the risk of damage. Also, while liquid will travel down, vapors travel UP.....or down if heavier than air. And flames can go both ways as well.
Somebody in the shipping chain DID know. Everybody in the shipping chain could have known, and has the legal right to know. By law, companies must have and make accessible the MSDS sheets (or whatever acronym is in curren use) Material Safety Data Sheets, which identify the hazards of the material's chemical components. Worker Right to Know, its in the CFR and some other places.
The fact that most workers don't bother finding out, or in some cases don't even know how to is a different matter.
Nothing like spending hours or even DAYS responding to the complaint of a "barracks lawyer" type over the wrong MSDS because the bag of floor sweeping compound he had said "Clean up IV" and the MSDS just said "Clean UP" as the product name....
Things can get on the Hazardous list by containing a known, or SUSPECTED carcinogen. And some things are the lists only when provided by the employer but not when naturally occurring. Silica sand dust, is a listed item, requiring worker right to know, when the company buys it, (for sand blasting, or for sanding the road in the winter) but not when it blows in on the wind from the 500 square miles of desert surrounding the plant....
TABLE SALT would be on the hazardous list, because of its chemical composition, but its not, because it is listed as a "food item".
Few people who's jobs do not directly involve the labyrinthine morass of chemical shipment and storage regulations have any clue about them at all, and fewer still care about what doesn't directly impact them, day in and day out.
A bit like gun control in that regard, people who don't own, use, deal with guns generally don't give a rip what the gun control laws are....until it personally affects them...
"Probably has nothing to do with the material itself--and everything to do with simply charging extra shipping fees wherever possible."
As truthful as it may be, I find it disappointing and short-sided in business analysis. Shipping at "no extra charge" is more inviting than adding a fee to the basic cost of the product I'm entertaining to purchase. I'm more likely to buy it even though I know the cost is buried in the fee. I say that because my experience with one of the sporting goods mail-order businesses lost my interest by adding shipping fees to the purchase price back in the 80's when I was heavily into accumulating an inventory of reloading equipment. I took offense to the change in policy when other businesses had not yet done the same thing. The same thing is happening at the retail level as businesses (restaurants, gun shops) tack on a percentage or flat fee if you use your credit card.
I tend to wonder if the average restaurant patron who would have given the server a 20% tip drops it to 17% when the credit card use is 3%. Businesses have to recapture their costs, but expecting the patrons to do it in such an obvious fashion is not acceptable to me; maybe I'm just a grumpy old bas/////patron.
As truthful as it may be, I find it disappointing and short-sided in business analysis. Shipping at "no extra charge" is more inviting than adding a fee to the basic cost of the product I'm entertaining to purchase. I'm more likely to buy it even though I know the cost is buried in the fee. I say that because my experience with one of the sporting goods mail-order businesses lost my interest by adding shipping fees to the purchase price back in the 80's when I was heavily into accumulating an inventory of reloading equipment. I took offense to the change in policy when other businesses had not yet done the same thing. The same thing is happening at the retail level as businesses (restaurants, gun shops) tack on a percentage or flat fee if you use your credit card.
I tend to wonder if the average restaurant patron who would have given the server a 20% tip drops it to 17% when the credit card use is 3%. Businesses have to recapture their costs, but expecting the patrons to do it in such an obvious fashion is not acceptable to me; maybe I'm just a grumpy old bas/////patron.
gotta watch shipping costs, not just with listed hazardous materials.
Learned that back in the day, 40+ years ago with some lead bullets. Found a great deal (pre online days) slugs about half the cost of buying them in the gunshop. Ordered a bunch. Cheap but + shipping. LEAD IS HEAVY!!!
Shipping costs were so much the total difference in price between the "cheap" slugs and buying them at the gunshop was less than $2 per thousand.
And that was back then....
IF you don't think shippers make a profit on HAZMAT fees, think again.
Learned that back in the day, 40+ years ago with some lead bullets. Found a great deal (pre online days) slugs about half the cost of buying them in the gunshop. Ordered a bunch. Cheap but + shipping. LEAD IS HEAVY!!!
Shipping costs were so much the total difference in price between the "cheap" slugs and buying them at the gunshop was less than $2 per thousand.
And that was back then....
IF you don't think shippers make a profit on HAZMAT fees, think again.
Jim Watson
New member
I was amazed when Academy Sports did not charge Hazmat or shipping on my mail-order purchase of primers this month. Just www sales tax. It wasn't built into the price, either, net to me was the same as the base price of my previous order at Target Sports who offered "free shipping" but added $30 Hazmat as well as sales tax.
Academy packaging was poor, I came up 31 short out of a thousand. One friend lost only 4, another out none.
Academy packaging was poor, I came up 31 short out of a thousand. One friend lost only 4, another out none.
FrankenMauser
New member
I suspect that hazmat fees are mostly insurance premiums.