After watching the movie Jeramiah Johnson one to many times I got a Charles Daly hawkins 45 cal muzzle loader. The problem is that it came with no manual and I counld not find one on the Internet and charles daly dosn't have any info on it. It was made in Italy and has a I stamped on the barrel which I have heard means it was made by Investarms. Can anyone give me pointers on how much FFF is safe to use with patched round balls? I will be using it for deer so I will need some power any help would be apreceated.
hawkins muzzle loader
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Some companies intentionally understate their loads for the purpose of limiting their legal liability.
The Investarms manual that I have access to lists the maximum load for their .45 rifles as follows:
For comparison, Pedersoli lists maximum loads for their .45 rifles with patched round balls as 80 and 90 grains.
Thompson Center lists the maximum loads for their .45 rifles as 110 grains ffg with patched round balls & 80 grains ffg for conical bullets.
Armi Sport lists their .45 Kentucky loads as 40-50 grains of Swiss ffg.
IMO you should be able to safely load up to ~80 grains of fffg as the Pedersoli manual indicates if your rifle and nipple is in good condition.
Load 15% less volume if loading 777.
The Investarms manual that I have access to lists the maximum load for their .45 rifles as follows:
For comparison, Pedersoli lists maximum loads for their .45 rifles with patched round balls as 80 and 90 grains.
Thompson Center lists the maximum loads for their .45 rifles as 110 grains ffg with patched round balls & 80 grains ffg for conical bullets.
Armi Sport lists their .45 Kentucky loads as 40-50 grains of Swiss ffg.
IMO you should be able to safely load up to ~80 grains of fffg as the Pedersoli manual indicates if your rifle and nipple is in good condition.
Load 15% less volume if loading 777.
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Hawken
Hi, for target work, suggest trying 45 gr. and work up in 5 gr increments.
And not past 80 gr. by volume of FFF.
It may take more, but no need for it in a .50 with round ball.
some where in there you will find a sweet spot where it it groups really well, then stay there.
The key is consistent loading technique, same pressure on the load, and doing the same thing the same way every time.
and should be powerful enough to get a deer with proper placement...
With FFF you will get a little more velocity & pressure out of it than using FF, i have always shot FFF in my 50. seems to burns cleaner to me.
Just recover some of your patches and look for burning through, on the higher loads, with a lubed patch it should not burn holes in it.
Hope this points you in the right way.
Ian
Hi, for target work, suggest trying 45 gr. and work up in 5 gr increments.
And not past 80 gr. by volume of FFF.
It may take more, but no need for it in a .50 with round ball.
some where in there you will find a sweet spot where it it groups really well, then stay there.
The key is consistent loading technique, same pressure on the load, and doing the same thing the same way every time.
and should be powerful enough to get a deer with proper placement...
With FFF you will get a little more velocity & pressure out of it than using FF, i have always shot FFF in my 50. seems to burns cleaner to me.
Just recover some of your patches and look for burning through, on the higher loads, with a lubed patch it should not burn holes in it.
Hope this points you in the right way.
Ian
Thanks!
Thanks a lot for the info and tips! I'll take your advice and use FFF there seems to be more of it around anyway. I will probobly be using 777 so thanks for telling me about using 15% less powder with it. I should be able to find a decent load by muzzle laoding season so look out bambie! Anyway thanks a lot for the speedy responce!
Thanks a lot for the info and tips! I'll take your advice and use FFF there seems to be more of it around anyway. I will probobly be using 777 so thanks for telling me about using 15% less powder with it. I should be able to find a decent load by muzzle laoding season so look out bambie! Anyway thanks a lot for the speedy responce!
The manual has to say,"Blackpowder only". I'd stay away from 777 with that rifle. Investarms makes a good enough rifle but they are for "blackpowder" pressure curves and 777 isn't blackpowder. Know what I mean? 777 is a high energy powder for the new modern inlines.
A 50 cal. can be a hundred yard deer gun. The 45cal. is about a 75 yard deer gun with round balls.
You can use FFFg with an Investarms rifle and balls but stay away from the "heavy conicals and FFFg". The barrels of all the Hawkens like Investarms and Thompson Centers can bulge and sometimes burst using the heavies and the FFFg powder. Moderate loads of FFg and the heavy conicals can work in the Investarms.
Sidenote....the Lyman Great Plains Rifles are made by Investarms. The barrels on the Hawken and the Great Plains and also locks and triggers are the same(the Great Plains being longer barrel though). The Great Plains is looked at as a fine rifle. The Hawken by Investarms is too.
Granted the 45 is at the transition between small bores using FFFg and large bores using FFg and either is good in the 45cal. but....stay away from heavy conicals and the FFFg powder.
I read a report listing numberous failures of barrels and the FFFg and the heavy conicals were a major contributor to failures in several manufacturers rifles.
A 50 cal. can be a hundred yard deer gun. The 45cal. is about a 75 yard deer gun with round balls.
You can use FFFg with an Investarms rifle and balls but stay away from the "heavy conicals and FFFg". The barrels of all the Hawkens like Investarms and Thompson Centers can bulge and sometimes burst using the heavies and the FFFg powder. Moderate loads of FFg and the heavy conicals can work in the Investarms.
Sidenote....the Lyman Great Plains Rifles are made by Investarms. The barrels on the Hawken and the Great Plains and also locks and triggers are the same(the Great Plains being longer barrel though). The Great Plains is looked at as a fine rifle. The Hawken by Investarms is too.
Granted the 45 is at the transition between small bores using FFFg and large bores using FFg and either is good in the 45cal. but....stay away from heavy conicals and the FFFg powder.
I read a report listing numberous failures of barrels and the FFFg and the heavy conicals were a major contributor to failures in several manufacturers rifles.
simonkenton
New member
With 80 grains of black powder and the round ball you will have an excellent deer killer.
madcratebuilder
New member
TC was the owners manual for all side lock black powder rifles on-line. Their info is a little different than yours. Where did you read about TC barrel having problems? I've never heard that.
If anyone is interested the TC on-line manuals have some great info on BP shotgun loads.
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I highly suspect that the bulged and burst barrels were due to someone putting a second load into a gun already loaded and then not completely ramming the second ball down resulting in the first ball getting a running start before it collides with the second ball in the bore. That's almost guarranteed to burst or at least bulge a barrel.
Another thing is what kind of "gunpowder" was used. "Well, it was these gray flakes with some red flakes mixed with it."
The widely differing maximum loads from different manufacturers may be due to one manufacturer being more worried about a lawsuit, in other words, they list a maximum load based on the rifle surviving an accidental double load with strength to spare.
I agree, in fact I would be willing to bet that if a gunsmith threaded a .45 caliber TC or Investarms barrel to fit a high-wall winchester action and then reamed a .458 Winchester Magnum chamber in it and shot factory ammo through it, the barrels would hold up.
I have been shooting in muzzleloading competition for over 20 years and I have never seen anyone blow up a barrel with black powder, not even with an accidental double load.
simonkenton
New member
Back in the early eighties, I lived in central Georgia.
I didn't know anyone who shot black powder, there was no internet.
My only source of muzzleloading info was the Dixie Gun Works catalog.
And from there, I bought a TC Hawken, a replica .58 Zouave, and a Tennessee Mountain Rifle kit. I killed deer and wild hogs with all three rifles.
Back then, the Dixie catalog said you needed to "proof" your new rifle.
You were to load the rifle with two patched round balls. I can't remember if you increased the powder charge or not, seems like it was 80 grains, maybe 100.
This was to make sure the barrel was strong enough.
You were to put the gun in a tire and pull the trigger with a 50 foot string. You were to do this one time.
So, I did it with all three guns. No blown or bulged barrels.
In fact, it got good to me with the TC Hawken, I loaded two balls and 80 gr of powder and took 5 or 6 shots at 50 yards. At that range the balls were right on target, and 2 inches apart. I thought that would really hit a deer hard, but decided to hunt only with one ball.
So, I "proofed" an Italian barrel, and American barrel, and a Jap barrel, and they all held up.
I didn't know anyone who shot black powder, there was no internet.
My only source of muzzleloading info was the Dixie Gun Works catalog.
And from there, I bought a TC Hawken, a replica .58 Zouave, and a Tennessee Mountain Rifle kit. I killed deer and wild hogs with all three rifles.
Back then, the Dixie catalog said you needed to "proof" your new rifle.
You were to load the rifle with two patched round balls. I can't remember if you increased the powder charge or not, seems like it was 80 grains, maybe 100.
This was to make sure the barrel was strong enough.
You were to put the gun in a tire and pull the trigger with a 50 foot string. You were to do this one time.
So, I did it with all three guns. No blown or bulged barrels.
In fact, it got good to me with the TC Hawken, I loaded two balls and 80 gr of powder and took 5 or 6 shots at 50 yards. At that range the balls were right on target, and 2 inches apart. I thought that would really hit a deer hard, but decided to hunt only with one ball.
So, I "proofed" an Italian barrel, and American barrel, and a Jap barrel, and they all held up.
madcratebuilder
New member
It was not uncommon practice back in the day to load 'doubles'. I have read in more than one book about that. It's mentioned several times in "With Crook on the Border".
Smokin_Gun
New member
The Two-Ball/Deer loads I 've used from a Miroku Tennessee Poorboy .50 had 6-8" spread at 100 yards with 60gr of Goex FFG black powder. An impressive load.
simonkenton
New member
My Tennessee Mountain Rifle is also a Miroku.
Putting two balls in, with the same powder charge, will significantly increase the pressure.
I have a six year old Dixie catalog, not sure if they still have this "proofing" advice in there, I am not at home today but when I return on Sunday I will look it up.
Whatever it said to do re: powder charge, is what I did.
Putting two balls in, with the same powder charge, will significantly increase the pressure.
I have a six year old Dixie catalog, not sure if they still have this "proofing" advice in there, I am not at home today but when I return on Sunday I will look it up.
Whatever it said to do re: powder charge, is what I did.
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simonkenton
New member
OK well when I return home Sunday I will dig up my old Dixie catalog and see if they were still printing directions for proofing your barrel six years ago when that catalog was printed.
simonkenton
New member
I have the 2003 Dixie Gun Works catalog here.
On page 657 is "Proof Testing Any Muzzleloading Gun."
It says to use twice the powder charge, and two balls, and to put the gun in a tire tube and pull the trigger with a string. They even have a photo of a muzzleloader stuck in a truck tire.
So that is, indeed what I did with my three Dixie rifles. For the TC Hawken, I used 160 grains of Goex ffg and two, patched .490 round balls.
Same for my beautiful Tennessee Mountain Rifle.
For the .58 Zouave, it would have been 140 grains of powder, and two patched .570 round balls.
Didn't bother any of these barrels.
So, I proofed an American, Italian, and Jap barrel.
On page 657 is "Proof Testing Any Muzzleloading Gun."
It says to use twice the powder charge, and two balls, and to put the gun in a tire tube and pull the trigger with a string. They even have a photo of a muzzleloader stuck in a truck tire.
So that is, indeed what I did with my three Dixie rifles. For the TC Hawken, I used 160 grains of Goex ffg and two, patched .490 round balls.
Same for my beautiful Tennessee Mountain Rifle.
For the .58 Zouave, it would have been 140 grains of powder, and two patched .570 round balls.
Didn't bother any of these barrels.
So, I proofed an American, Italian, and Jap barrel.