Hawken Charge Question ... Weight or Volume.

R

riverwalker76

New member
I have several Hawken flintlock and percussion rifles alike, and all say the same thing for load data. Either 80 gr. of Goex, 90 gr. of Goex, or 100 gr. of Goex.

Here's my problem. I've weighed an 80 grain charge, and placed it in my slide powder measure, and it always comes out to around 90 gr. or so.

When they say 'grains' where BP is concerned, are they talking weight or volume on a slide measure?
 
OK Thanks.

I was told that by an old timer at the local gun shop, but I wasn't certain so I asked here.

Of course, the rule of thumb is to measure by weight if I'm loading for a 45-70. Correct?

So, by volume if it's a muzzleloader, and by weight if it's a cartridge. Right?
 
I don't know for sure about BP Cartridges..... I only have the frontstuffers ...... but IIRC, BP is always measured by volume.
 
I weigh powder for my .40-65 BPCR because I think it helps accuracy and because the Sharps Rifle Company said to.
But for a muzzleloading hunting rifle I would go by volume, I don't think the setup is precise enough for it to matter.

But it would be interesting if somebody did actual tests with measure, scale, chronograph, and target instead of just repeating Internet Dogma.
 
Real bp can be either weighed or measured. Subs must be measured. Either way there must be no air space. If you want to load cartridges light you have to use a filler.
 
riverwalker76 said:
I've weighed an 80 grain charge, and placed it in my slide powder measure, and it always comes out to around 90 gr. or so.
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Assuming you were measuring ffg real black powder, either your scale or your 'slide measure' is inaccurate. It's probably the volume measure that's the most in error.

There is no government standard for using 'grains' as a unit of volume measure. The unit we use for black powder is based on the volume displaced by the amount of water weighing 1 grain. Our black powder volume measures are almost universally not watertight so it's pretty difficult to verify their accuracy. However, it so happens that ffg real black powder displaces very nearly the same volume in grains as it's weight in grains; in other words, if you measured out say, 50 grains of ffg real black powder using a volumetric measure it would weigh close to 50 grains.

So you can use ffg real black powder to check the accuracy of your volume measures. However, it's an exercise in futility; they vary all over the place. Remember, there's no government standard - accessory manufacturers do make an attempt at being correct here, but there's no money in being very precise (we won't pay for a volume measure that's highly accurate when there are a dozen cheaper ones that are 'close'). I have 4 different volume measures and they disagree with each other and the weight scale by as much as 17%. The one that comes closest to the weight scale differs depending on the amount being measured.

Jim Watson said:
But it would be interesting if somebody did actual tests with measure, scale, chronograph, and target instead of just repeating Internet Dogma.
Click to expand...
What tests would you like to see done?
 
You will also find that FFFg is a little denser than FFg and Swiss is a little denser than Goex when you compare weighed to measured charges.
 
All my Black Powder is in grains not volume. There is 7,000 grains by weight
in a lb. of Black Powder. My pistol load is 14 grs. so I know I can get 500
shots out of a lb. All my rifle loads are in weight grains also. When I shoot
90 grs. in my rifle I know it's 90 grs. Don't matter what my volume powder
measure says. A grain by weight is a grain. Simple for me this way. I check
everything on a scale.
 
We use volume style measures to get approximately what we want for our bp usage. The actual, precise, amount is only relative. Adjust your measure to what works best and don't sweat numbers.
Suggested charges are only that, suggestions.
If a suggested charge is 80 gr. and 90 (on an adjustable measure) gives best accuracy that is what you want to use. Don't get bent out of shape when on a precise scale it reads a little more or less.
And, within working ranges for bp, in a good gun, you will be within proper safety parameters.
mykeal had a good post, as he usually does, re-read it.
 
I set my Thompson Center powder measure to 80 grains this evening, and poured in 80 grains of Goex FFG per the level indicator.

After throwing it in the pan on the scale it weighed out to 79.8 grains! That's close enough for me! ;)
 
And yet when you weighed 80 grains first and then put it in the volume measure it came out 90 grains. Curious.
 
How you pour the powder in will affect the amount it measures. Simply pouring it in till it's full verses tapping on it to make the powder settle. It's a good habit to be consistant.

Fortunately, black powder is a lot more forgiving than smokeless. I have witnessed accidental double charges that didn't blow up the gun.

It's when you use the low density BP substitutes that you have to keep in mind that 80 grains by volume is not literally 80 grains by weight. That's why you are warned to measure these propellents by volume, not weight.

The actual weight of a "30 grain volume equivilent" Pyrodex pellet for revolvers is 24 grains on my scale.
 
mykeal said:
And yet when you weighed 80 grains first and then put it in the volume measure it came out 90 grains. Curious.
Click to expand...

I was using an old CVA powder measure the first time around. I picked up a Thompson Center measure yesterday, and it seems to be more accurate.
 
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