The concept of the thing seems good, a 22 hornet .222 rem marriage,half way between, but I believe that the problems involving the loads, action alterations, and so forth, along with the fact th a nobody will really care makes it a worthless idea. If it could be put into a target grade rimfire action, that might work, but once again, who would actually buy it?
Has anyone ever heard of the 5.7 gn being adapted to sporting rifles?
- Thread starter briandg
- Start date
the closest thing that comes to mind is a 22 tcm rifle. it runs 2800 fps from the rifle on factory ammo.
ideally, there is better bullet selection with the 5.7 than the tcm which uses the lighter hornet and 218 bee bullets.
it may have been discussed on other forums like saubier, 22 tcm net, and other places, but i havent kept up with it.
i will admit i have been tempted by some of the things at james calhoon centering around the cz 527, but those are not 5.7
i do know that there are 5.7 ar uppers
ideally, there is better bullet selection with the 5.7 than the tcm which uses the lighter hornet and 218 bee bullets.
it may have been discussed on other forums like saubier, 22 tcm net, and other places, but i havent kept up with it.
i will admit i have been tempted by some of the things at james calhoon centering around the cz 527, but those are not 5.7
i do know that there are 5.7 ar uppers
FrankenMauser
New member
Savage chambered 5.7x28mm in the Model 25 (bolt action) as a new option in 2011. I don't believe there was ever a second production run. To say it was a slow seller would be an understatement.
Several members of the GBO forums have built 5.7x28mm barrels for H&R Handi-Rifles. Most admit that .22 Hornet (or .223 Rem) would have been a better option.
Several members of the GBO forums have built 5.7x28mm barrels for H&R Handi-Rifles. Most admit that .22 Hornet (or .223 Rem) would have been a better option.
It seems to me that this may be an exception to the old rule turning swords into plowshares I'm having a hard time finding a place to put that in the American sport shooting team that doesn't involve military o r police type weapons and tactics. The hornet and .222 are all but dead, rimfire is on the top of the pile for small stuff. A person would have to buy a new rifle, and it would be difficult to just run off a thousand units.
I'd like to have one, because I've always liked this type, small bore moderate loads, but im not going to singlehandedly convince Remington to make it.
I'd like to have one, because I've always liked this type, small bore moderate loads, but im not going to singlehandedly convince Remington to make it.
FrankenMauser
New member
.22 Hornet is far from dead.
It may not be as popular and main-stream, but it is still chambered by multiple major manufacturers and ammunition (and reloading components) can be found in nearly every gun store in my region.
In some parts of the country, it may be a little scarce; but that doesn't mean that it isn't still going strong elsewhere.
A few other cartridges that I often see labeled as "dead" or "obsolete" that seem to be popular only in specific parts of the country or just keep plugging along, unseen by the masses (even more so than .22 Hornet):
.444 Marlin
.450 Marlin
.300 Savage
.257 Roberts
.375 H&H
And, probably declared "dead" more than any other in this short list: .22 WMR.
T/C Contender and Encore rifles with aftermarket barrels chambered in 5.7x28 are reported to be tack-drivers that function well. If anyone wants a 5.7x28 rifle suitable for hunting or target use, then this is currently the best way to go, by far.
The Savage model 25 in 5.7x28 was a flop, but this was due to the barrels that Savage used, not the cartridge. By the time that Savage belatedly realized their error, there was enough bad press generated about the model 25 in that chambering to discourage them from taking the trouble to correct the error - so they dropped the chambering instead and some gun writers claimed that the cartridge was the problem. - A claim that T/C shooters soon put the lie to.
The original FN semi-auto in 5.7x28 functioned well and featured an innovative magazine system that was carried over for AR uppers, but the FN was prohibitively expensive, and from reports that I have read, it had accuracy issues. Many shooters are put off by its goofy appearance.
The 5.7x28 AR uppers have sold better than the FN, but not a whole lot better.
A flop as a military round, the 5.7x28 still is a step up from the ballistic twin .22 Hornet, which has short case life due to it's 19th century-design with paper-thin brass. The modern 5.7x28 case is much more robust, and so can be safely reloaded half again as many times as the expensive .22 Hornet brass. Once-fired 5.7x28 brass can often be found on the ground along with once-fired .223 brass at shooting ranges, but even if you have to buy factory ammo for the brass, it still comes out significantly less expensive than the .22 Hornet, most particularly if you reload.
The .22 Hornet has been around a very long time, and is chambered by a variety of gun-makers. There are a wide variety of .22 Hornet rifles to be had in bolt action and single-shot rifles. This creates a significant amount of inertia that, along with the widely-reported flop of the Savage model 25 in 5.7x28, and its lack of success as a military round has discouraged gun-makers from developing and offering 5.7x28 rifles that really ought to be taking us into the next century, giving the obsolete .22 Hornet case a rest at last.
The 22 TCM is meeting similar resistance, but for very different reasons. - A large number of companies, most major gun manufacturers in fact, have a lot invested in the .22 Hornet. How long will this inertia prevent us from moving forward to enjoy a more modern .22 Hornet equivalent?
Your guess is as good as mine.
In the mean-time, for the 5.7x28 our best bet for a competent and accurate hunting rifle today is the T/C Contender or Encore, outfitted with an aftermarket barrel.
The 5.7x28 case has some potential as a base for 5mm and 17 caliber wildcat cartridges. It make take a development in this direction to give the 5.7x28 the bump it needs to overcome inertia and begin to appear in a significant variety of sporting arms.
In any event, the writing is now on the wall for the obsolete 22 Hornet case. It is fated to a place along-side the 44-40, 38-40 etc. among the 19th century nostalgia cartridges that will be with us for a long time, but which have been superseded by more robust modern designs.
The Savage model 25 in 5.7x28 was a flop, but this was due to the barrels that Savage used, not the cartridge. By the time that Savage belatedly realized their error, there was enough bad press generated about the model 25 in that chambering to discourage them from taking the trouble to correct the error - so they dropped the chambering instead and some gun writers claimed that the cartridge was the problem. - A claim that T/C shooters soon put the lie to.
The original FN semi-auto in 5.7x28 functioned well and featured an innovative magazine system that was carried over for AR uppers, but the FN was prohibitively expensive, and from reports that I have read, it had accuracy issues. Many shooters are put off by its goofy appearance.
The 5.7x28 AR uppers have sold better than the FN, but not a whole lot better.
A flop as a military round, the 5.7x28 still is a step up from the ballistic twin .22 Hornet, which has short case life due to it's 19th century-design with paper-thin brass. The modern 5.7x28 case is much more robust, and so can be safely reloaded half again as many times as the expensive .22 Hornet brass. Once-fired 5.7x28 brass can often be found on the ground along with once-fired .223 brass at shooting ranges, but even if you have to buy factory ammo for the brass, it still comes out significantly less expensive than the .22 Hornet, most particularly if you reload.
The .22 Hornet has been around a very long time, and is chambered by a variety of gun-makers. There are a wide variety of .22 Hornet rifles to be had in bolt action and single-shot rifles. This creates a significant amount of inertia that, along with the widely-reported flop of the Savage model 25 in 5.7x28, and its lack of success as a military round has discouraged gun-makers from developing and offering 5.7x28 rifles that really ought to be taking us into the next century, giving the obsolete .22 Hornet case a rest at last.
The 22 TCM is meeting similar resistance, but for very different reasons. - A large number of companies, most major gun manufacturers in fact, have a lot invested in the .22 Hornet. How long will this inertia prevent us from moving forward to enjoy a more modern .22 Hornet equivalent?
Your guess is as good as mine.
In the mean-time, for the 5.7x28 our best bet for a competent and accurate hunting rifle today is the T/C Contender or Encore, outfitted with an aftermarket barrel.
The 5.7x28 case has some potential as a base for 5mm and 17 caliber wildcat cartridges. It make take a development in this direction to give the 5.7x28 the bump it needs to overcome inertia and begin to appear in a significant variety of sporting arms.
In any event, the writing is now on the wall for the obsolete 22 Hornet case. It is fated to a place along-side the 44-40, 38-40 etc. among the 19th century nostalgia cartridges that will be with us for a long time, but which have been superseded by more robust modern designs.
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"...prohibitively expensive..." More about availability than cost for ammo and brass. Midway shows FN and Federal brands(under hand gun ammo) using 40 and 27 grain bullets only. No brass at all. They're confused about die sets. List Lyman dies for cheap($41.99), but talk about straight walled cases. No such dies on Lyman's site. $159.99 for Redding 3 die set.
Ditto for Grafs except they list FN and Federal ammo under rifle. They show very few die sets as well.
"...turning swords into plowshares..." Is a Utopian dream. Not a rule.
Ditto for Grafs except they list FN and Federal ammo under rifle. They show very few die sets as well.
"...turning swords into plowshares..." Is a Utopian dream. Not a rule.
FrankenMauser
New member
Prophetic.
...Just like all of the cartridges that "put the writing on the wall" for .30 WCF.
I'm not here to argue about .22 Hornet's future.
But I will give you one really good reason why it will live on, even if found in direct competition with 5.7x28mm:
It is rimmed.
(No, that's not always a handicap. Sometimes, it's a very good thing.)
I am sure that the .22 Hornet will be with us for a long time.
I am equally sure that it's time as the only cartridge in that class is nearing the end of its run.
Other cartridges with similar performance and much better, more robust cases are starting to appear. - The writing is on the wall.
I am equally sure that it's time as the only cartridge in that class is nearing the end of its run.
Other cartridges with similar performance and much better, more robust cases are starting to appear. - The writing is on the wall.
FrankenMauser
New member
The market for "low-powered" .22 caliber centerfire cartridges isn't very big, in my opinion.
And, what are all these new cartridges?
5.7x28mm FN - Niche applications. A pain to reload. Expensive and/or unobtainable factory ammo with very little variety.
4.6x30mm HK - Not .22 caliber. Not even close to a standard caliber. Nearly dead on arrival. No "civilian-legal" firearms in the U.S. for the cartridge.
5.8x21mm - Not .22 caliber. Again, not even close to a standard caliber. Unobtainable in the U.S. And, ballistically similar to .22 WMR - nearly identical in a rifle.
4.3x30mm Libra - Not .22 caliber. Not even .17 caliber. Unobtainable. Seemingly still-born. But... actually based upon a "rimless" .22 Hornet, ironically.
What did I miss?
FrankenMauser
New member
22 TCM = decapitated 5.56x45mm. Nothing new.
Geezerbiker
New member
A rifle in .221 Fireball would make a lot more sense. It's about the same length as the Hornet but considerably more powerful.
Tony
Tony
Comparing the 5.7x28, then the .22 Hornet and 22 TCM are the other two small-case 22 centerfires that are similar. They all shoot the lighter 22 bullets only, at modest but still useful velocity.
There are of course more powerful rounds out there that shoot heavier bullets - and these are also irrelevant to this discussion.
Presently, the T/C Contender or Encore with an aftermarket barrel is the only serious sporting rifle chambered for 5.7x28.
The RIA .22TCM bolt rifle is currently the only factory-made non-Hornet competition in this category. I got a chance to inspect one not long ago. It is nice for the price but if I owned one, the stock would soon be refinished. The metal work is not bad.
Sporting rifles in .22 Hornet are not as common as they once were, but there are still plenty of them out there. I have owned two .22 Hornets, great rifles but I am not impressed with the paper-thin .22 Hornet case. They are expensive, and do not hold up as long as most cases do.
In this day and age, there is more need than ever for a relatively quiet but still competent .22 centerfire, capable of reaching out a couple of hundred yards or so - accurately.
I get by with reduced loads for my 1:12" twist .223 bolt gun, listed in the Speer manual. These loads using AA5744 work out to be in the same velocity range and serve much the same purpose as the cartridges being discussed. Finding a .223 bolt rifle with the slow twist that handles the lighter bullets best is getting to be difficult though. - Just about all of the current .223 guns are 1:9" twist these days.
Personally, I am leaning toward the .22TCM as I much prefer a bolt action rifle over any autoloader and most single-shots. If somebody came out with a nice trim bolt rifle in 5.7x28, then the availability of free once-fired range brass would tend to lean me in that direction.
I doubt that I'll ever own another 22 Hornet unless it is an antique, a golden oldie from the good old days. - I would jump at a chance for a good original Winchester 1885 in .22 Hornet, for example. Other than that though, I am all done with the .22 Hornet and am ready for something more modern and robust.
There are of course more powerful rounds out there that shoot heavier bullets - and these are also irrelevant to this discussion.
Presently, the T/C Contender or Encore with an aftermarket barrel is the only serious sporting rifle chambered for 5.7x28.
The RIA .22TCM bolt rifle is currently the only factory-made non-Hornet competition in this category. I got a chance to inspect one not long ago. It is nice for the price but if I owned one, the stock would soon be refinished. The metal work is not bad.
Sporting rifles in .22 Hornet are not as common as they once were, but there are still plenty of them out there. I have owned two .22 Hornets, great rifles but I am not impressed with the paper-thin .22 Hornet case. They are expensive, and do not hold up as long as most cases do.
In this day and age, there is more need than ever for a relatively quiet but still competent .22 centerfire, capable of reaching out a couple of hundred yards or so - accurately.
I get by with reduced loads for my 1:12" twist .223 bolt gun, listed in the Speer manual. These loads using AA5744 work out to be in the same velocity range and serve much the same purpose as the cartridges being discussed. Finding a .223 bolt rifle with the slow twist that handles the lighter bullets best is getting to be difficult though. - Just about all of the current .223 guns are 1:9" twist these days.
Personally, I am leaning toward the .22TCM as I much prefer a bolt action rifle over any autoloader and most single-shots. If somebody came out with a nice trim bolt rifle in 5.7x28, then the availability of free once-fired range brass would tend to lean me in that direction.
I doubt that I'll ever own another 22 Hornet unless it is an antique, a golden oldie from the good old days. - I would jump at a chance for a good original Winchester 1885 in .22 Hornet, for example. Other than that though, I am all done with the .22 Hornet and am ready for something more modern and robust.
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