Has anyone done it?

L

littlephil

New member
Hello all, I'm just wondering if anyone has done any big bore wildcats on the 7.62x54r case. I just made up a crude dummy cartridge with a 44 mag bullet in a cut down steel case just to see if it would work. This would be a project for the distant future, but I just want to see if anyone has done anything like this, and if so, how did you work up the loads? If anyone wants more info on on this cartridge just ask. Thanks for any input in advance.
 
Its kind of like the Herret wildcats. But when I want power and performance from .44 cal bullets I'd buy a 444 Marlin and ask Frankenmauser how to load for it, hes done extensive stuff with that one.
 
The Vihtavuori reloading manual lists several. The Finns apparently necked the 7.62x53mmR down to at least 6.5mm and up to 9.3mm, with several steps in between.
 
In a Mosin-Nagant, you run into the need for major magazine modifications, if you increase bullet diameter beyond about 8mm.

So, 7.62x54R wildcats either have to be used in a different platform, or must be built on a Mosin-Nagant that's had 20 times its value pumped into it in an attempt to turn it into something it will never be good at.

I've never done more than make some dummy cartridges, but my favorite potential 7.62x54R variation would be one in .35 caliber. Call it "9.3x54R." ;)

If there was a good platform for the cartridge, I probably would have gone forward with the concept. But, with the Mosin-Nagant being the only repeater that handles the case body shape and rim diameter well... I tossed the dummies in a drawer and moved on to better ideas.


But this post does remind me...
I have an 8mm barrel with no future sitting here, and I know where I can get an M44 for a song. I have brass. Dies would be about $175. A reamer would be about $125, maybe cheaper if I could find something to cut the neck separate from a standard 7.62x54R reamer for the body. And the expansion ratio would be higher, so I could use straight 7.62x54R data for load development.... ... .. .
 
Wildcatting to get something better is pretty much gone. Wildcatting to get something different still hangs on, but its not nearly as common as it once was, and it never was all that common to begin with.

Until the fall of the Iron Curtain and former communists discovering capitalism by realizing that, hey, Americans will pay cash for this stuff...the 7.62x54R and rifles for it were rare in the US. SO they simply weren't around during the heyday of wildcatting.

And, like the .303 British, there is essentially only ONE rifle action (bolt) that uses it. Which further limits its appeal for wildcatting to those people who are just "can we do this" types.

If it can be done, odds are good someone somewhere sometime has done it. If there isn't a lot of it being done, there's probably a good reason.

You could neck it to anything and use it in a single shot with fine results, but there are more common base cases with the same approximate capacity, so other than just because, why bother?
 
Thanks for the input so far. I totally agree that there are better starting points as far as rifle and cartridge go, but this is one of those "something different" things. I understand what was said about magazine modifications, but I think they would be minimal in this case. What I did was cut a steel case off right where the shoulder starts from the body. I then cleaned up the new mouth and measured it. It came out right at .430", and I just happened to have some old 44 mags laying around. So I pulled a bullet and "crimped" in place. It's short enough, at least with a 240gr bullet, to fit in the mag and the entire cartridge fits the fat part of mag. It also feeds just like normal from the mag, at least one does, I may make up a couple more to see if they'll feed like normal. The col comes out between the 44 mag and the 444, but it's fatter at the base than either. Personally I think it has a chance to work out pretty well. If I knew how to post pics I'd put a couple up, I may have to start a photobucket just for this. :D Tell me what you think and I'll work on maybe gettin some pics up. Thanks again for the constructive criticism. :)
 
I have a friend with a 7.62x54R reamer with floating pilot so he can make MNs have .308 groove rifles and get good boat tail hunting bullets.

I have used the reamer to set back a barrel.
Now he tells me he is going to have it ground down to 270.


I have enough wildcat gear to know that the biggest cost will be good dies.

Right now, if were not bogged down in finishing my shop and getting the new mill to fit, I would be working on my 300 win mag Mosin Nagant.

I also have the dies and reamer for a Mosin Nagant 250 Krag Ackley, but i have not started, and probably will not hunt with it in 2015. I have one tobnpr's fancy stocks for it.

Fitting1939IzMosinand300WMKriegertostock4-2-2014.jpg

300wm
 
phil,
I got the rosewood tip nagant stock off ebay for $95.
attachment.php


I am proud of the pre stressed front pillar I designed for that rifle.
It is in the shape of an Aluminium toilet.


Also I got a real deal on the barrel. Someone paid ~$450 to get that custom Krieger barrel threaded for an M70 and then the muzzle at 1/2 -24.
That should have been 1/2-28 or 5/8-24... the standard muzzle threads.
So I got the 300WM Krieger unused for $103 on Ebay.
They effectively threw the barrel away after they made the mistake.
I cut new breech threads and extractor relief for a Mosin and made a muzzle thread protector.

image above same as link below
 

Attachments

  • mosin nagant Aluminum pillar are recoil lug prototypes 4-28-2014.jpg
    mosin nagant Aluminum pillar are recoil lug prototypes 4-28-2014.jpg
    85.6 KB · Views: 397
I have to say Clark, that is a pretty ingenious pillar you made. I'd love to be able to work with someone like you and learn some real skills in smithing. Thanks for sharing!
 
Clark, I wondered if that would work out that way. I was also wondering if you could use data for the 444 A's a starting point for this round. How exactly does one measure h2o capacity in cartridges? I'm curious to see how this one compares to the 444.
 
my local retired builder buddy took an SKS ( yes I know it's not a 7.62 X 54 R ) & chambered it for a 9 X 39 cartridge & built dies for it... so he has a semi auto 9 X 39 :)
 
Clark, I wondered if that would work out that way. I was also wondering if you could use data for the 444 A's a starting point for this round. How exactly does one measure h2o capacity in cartridges? I'm curious to see how this one compares to the 444.
Click to expand...
No way. I can tell you from experience and eye-balling it that .444 Marlin data will not work. You'd have a very bad day, if you tried it.
And, using empirical data, you'll see that a full size 7.62x54R case has less case capacity (64 gr) than .444 Marlin (70 gr). That's almost a 10% reduction. So, after you chop the neck and shoulder off, you're well outside of the realm of the .444.

My guess is that you'll be a just a hair above .44-40 or .44 Mag case capacity.
...And, as a byproduct, essentially duplicating .44 Mag but with a thicker web and thicker case walls that make the cartridge look bigger without actually providing much benefit unless you want to push for max pressure (50K+ psi).


To measure case capacity:
Weigh the empty, primed case.
Fill with water until it overflows.
Weigh it.
The difference in weights is case capacity in grains of H2O.
 
Magnumwheelman, I've heard of the 9x39 and think it would be neat to have someday too. I've also heard of the 445, though I'd never looked it up to see exactly what it was. I'll check it out some more for sure.

Frankenmauser, that's exactly why I ask questions here. I hadn't looked at case capacities yet so that's good info. I was mainly thinking that some would be made up since the 54r case is fatter at the base. But I didn't realize the 444 had that much capacity. I'm mainly thinking about this because it should work on the nagant action relatively easy, and there's no need for bolt modifications. It'll be something I came up with and made myself and it won't be built on a "store bought" gun. But like I said, it'll be in the distant future if it does happen. I just wanted to get some opinions here as to what y'all thought about it and some advice on how you'd go about loading it for the first time. Thanks for the help so far and keep the advice comin.
 
Yea, .444 Marlin is often thought of as much more anemic than it really is.
.444 Marlin cases are, essentially, a straight-walled 8x57mm with a rim. (Or a straight-walled, slightly shortened, .30-06 with a rim.)
The length is a byproduct of the COAL limitations of the Marlin 336 family of receivers, but it works out to roughly the trim length most reloaders use for 8x57mm Mauser.


And, for the record... I'm not trying to talk you out of this, at all. I'm all for doing things a little differently, for playing with wildcats, and even for "throwing your money away" on gun projects - as long as you have fun doing it. (I mean that in terms of, "you won't get your investment back, financially.")

Honestly, a .44 caliber Mosin-Nagant with a short barrel (say 16.5-18") would appeal to be as a good short-range Elk rifle, if it bridged the gap between .44 Mag and .444 Marlin; and if I didn't already have two 444s, an M38 (7.62x54R) that I'm happy with, and a pair of big bore AR-15s (one of which still can't be fired until the custom [wildcat ;)] dies show up).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top