Hard lesson....

C

ClydeFrog

Moderator
I read a new article(posted 02/17/2014) on www.orlandosentinel.com .

A gun owner/CCW license holder met a unknown person to set up a private sale of 2 Glock handguns in a pawn shop parking lot(which to my knowledge is illegal since the shop had a FFL).
The guy got scammed & the other subject took off with $$$ and the Glock pistols. :eek:
The ticked off gun owner chased after the crook reportedly aiming a loaded .45 revolver at him. The subject escaped but when the gun owner/driver went to lower the hammer on the .45 revolver, it discharged firing a bullet into the street.
The driver/gun owner contacted the Orlando PD to report the gun theft/crime but he himself got busted for multiple charges. :rolleyes:

There are many hard lessons & "hot wash" topics to take from this event;
1) Be very careful when doing private sales with unknown people or in places that may turn sideways quickly. This whole scheme sounded like a bad idea from the start. Some gun owners sell guns/buy guns all the time without any problems but all it takes is one bad event to get you killed or, like the hapless pick up driver/gun owner in a big jam.
2) Don't drive & mess with guns! :mad: it sounds simple but I read of & see gun owners/license holders who do it often. When your vehicle hits a bump and you jerk the trigger or get upset & wave a firearm around, you might get a ND. Like Martin Lawerence's cop character in the chase scene of Bad Boys II. :D
3) If you choose to do a private sale, get or document the buyer's/seller's details. The Yankee Marshal, a Youtube gun channel personality brought up this points in a video. Check the buyer's DL or if they have a valid gun license/CCW. If they say no or have identity theft issues(which are valid), then break it off. I wouldn't get in a John Woo movie Mexican Stand-Off with someone in a 7-11 or Target parking lot over ID cards.
4) Know the area you are going to meet at & if you can take a friend or family member. They can be a "good witness" if something goes south & they can help defend you if something does jump off(like a ambush or a double-cross).
It might sound like a hokey cop show plot or B movie script, but some criminals like to set people up using things like Craigslist.org or printed classifieds. Stay alert & be smart.
5) Use the internet. Sites like Gunbroker.com or GunsAmerica.com help prevent incidents like this. It's safe & you don't wind up in jail for some stupid reason(s).

Clyde
PS; I couldn't put a direct link up since Im on a mobile version.
 
This is good to remember. For this reason, if I want to sell a gun face to face, I do it at gun shows. And, I ask to see a Driver's License.

I have never sold a gun (or bought one) in a parking lot.
 
I've done many parking lot sales - never a problem. However, in every case the transaction was initiated on one of the many forums I frequent. Having an ability to look at a forum member's posting history gives me an idea as to the kind of person I'd be dealing with.
 
I suppose if I wanted to do a face-to-face deal with someone I checked out from a forum, I would either invite him over to my house or go to his to do the transaction. The garage is as good a place as any. I'm just not comfortable checking out a firearm on some 3rd party's property who is not a part of the transaction.
 
I've never sold anything in a parking lot transaction, but I've bought plenty. Never had a bad experience, both from people from the local newspaper ads and armslist. Although I did get some funny looks one time in the costco parking lot, it was a busy Saturday and a number of people saw us exchange cash, then (this is what got the funny looks) pick up two ammo cans out of the back of a toyota Prius and walk off. :D

My last parking lot but off armslist, the seller was a super nice guy! We just stood around and talked guns before/after the transaction.

I can't imagine these sorts of things ever going as badly as the OP article. Given the nature of what is being sold; I always assume the other party is carrying, they should logically do the same.
 
I have done multiple gun deals in parking lots. But i always have had backup stratigically placed in case something went down. And they have all been in high traffic areas with lots of witnesses around. But i am paranoid like that.
 
House?....

Unlike some forum members, I'm not down with giving out a bunch of personal data & my home address. :rolleyes:
I recall a TFLer who in a post gave all his contact details. Name, address, phone #, etc. Id bet the guy would tell you his PIN codes too if you asked. :D

Id never do a transaction at my home. Unless it was a co-worker or friend who I knew very well, then I wouldn't feel safe about that.
Robbers & home invasion(rip) crews commonly case areas or do simple transactions to recon a place to later take down. :cool:

Clyde
 
^^^^this.

Although all my face to face transactions have always gone well, don't give any personal info out. It's always at costco, mcdonalds, etc. high traffic, very visible places.
 
Given that a woman just confessed to being a Craigslist killer with 22+ murders under her belt, it is wise to be cautious when meeting strangers.

If you are going to meet someone, have at minimum their phone number, vehicle description, and computer advertisement, and URL if things got really sour. If you bring a friend, make sure they are alert and armed, and not just an easy target or another hostage. Would really suck to bring your wife and then witness something terrible happen to her instead of you.

If you don't bring anyone at least someone where you are going, or at least leave a note on the table with some basic information.

Also have phone and/or text message dialogue.

Screen print a copy of the ad (for valuable items) as a receipt against claims of theft. If you do a bill of sale, don't give your address. I don't like the idea of strangers knowing where I live, especially if it's something valuable.

If at any time your 'flake' or 'danger' meter were to register cancel the meet.

I would under almost no circumstances go to or have someone come to my home. The words 'set up' come to mind.

When selecting a meet, YOU pick the location, and park in/near security cameras and well lighted or high visibility areas, and have some common sense. Don't climb into the back of a van, for instance...

Be ready for something to go south, and stay alert. If you need to run, then run. Surely the value of the items isn't worth gunfire or your life or an arrest.
 
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Id never do a transaction at my home.
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Nonsense, unless you all are doing FTF's without any proof of ID.

In every FTF transaction I do where I sell a gun, I require that the buyer produce a driver's license first. That drivers license has his home address, full name and middle initial, even birthdate. In every FTF transaction where I buy a gun, I have always been asked to produce a license for inspection. Same thing - has my address and plenty of personal information that could be used to track me down.

Now, if I lived in a really fancy house, where I'm paying over $15,000 in just taxes and insurance every year, then I can afford to pay full price++ at Gander Mountain.:D
 
To the OP, you said;

A gun owner/CCW license holder met a unknown person to set up a private sale of 2 Glock handguns in a pawn shop parking lot(which to my knowledge is illegal since the shop had a FFL).
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that it was illegal to do a private transaction in a gun store parking lot. Is this a state law for your state?

Thanks!
James
 
We had a guy shot in Kansas City MO a few years back who answered an ad on Craigslist.

When ever I do a FTF transaction, I do it in public. I also want to know the personal info of the person I am interacting with.

I will tell them right in the e-mails between us or the ad, you must provide positive identification. I also get a phone number from them and try to talk to them personally.

If anything sounds/feels hokey, I call it off. Also, never do to a meeting place alone.
 
Post 11, ATF.....

To answer post 11, I'm going by remarks made by The Yankee Marshal on www.youtube.com . He was discussing private gun sales & made that statement so take it for what it's worth.
It to me; "sounds legal enough" :D but I'm neither a ATF agent or a lawyer. ;)

I can say; if I held a valid FFL or ran a gun shop, Id be a tad miffed if I found out customers or gun owners were doing private sales on my property w/o my consent or knowledge. :mad:

quick story; While doing a armed security/storm recovery detail after Ivan in 2004, I contacted a FFL holder-gun dealer online. I went to his small house/shop in the suburbs of Pensacola Florida. The guy seemed really sketchy & belligerent over selling guns. :confused:
I just got up & left. :mad:

Clyde
 
Nonsense, unless you all are doing FTF's without any proof of ID.

In every FTF transaction I do where I sell a gun, I require that the buyer produce a driver's license first. That drivers license has his home address, full name and middle initial, even birthdate. In every FTF transaction where I buy a gun, I have always been asked to produce a license for inspection. Same thing - has my address and plenty of personal information that could be used to track me down.
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Showing an ID with your current address on it is a world different than inviting someone to your house. You could easily be taken in your home unless you have guns drawn. And taking your home contents is much more attractive than a roadside robbery for a few hundred dollars.

Think about all of the intel someone could gain from either an exterior view of your home, or coming inside. Yes, I realize google maps can show the exterior, even on street view. But criminals are generally lazy. Someone at or in your home can see your security, number of cars in the driveway, do you have dogs, and inside your home they see the layout, family photos, wife and kids, interior security, valuables, etc.

They could be surveilling your home interior for a later robbery/burglary. Or take you on the spot.

For instance, you invite stranger into your kitchen, then his 4 buddies knock at the door. You're distracted, and he gets the drop on you while you are walking to the door. You are now screwed, with no public witnesses. Looking forward to being locked in your own safe and left for dead... there are many ways in which this could get ugly.

Going to someone else's home? Also can be dangerous for a variety of reasons.
 
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Showing an ID with your current address on it is a world different than inviting someone to your house.
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I have made a few transactions, and always at my home. Not in my house, but at my home in the driveway. I insist up front that I want to see a valid state ID and I make two copies of a bill of sale with all his/her info, and mine on it, as well as a statement by the buyer that they can legally purchase and own a firearm in my state. I always have a phone conversation with them before giving my address. Always works well. We usually have a lengthy firearms discussion during and after the conversation. Some say they'd never sign such a thing, and I just don't sell to them. No big deal.
 
Just 1 time....

As I said, all it takes is just 1 time.
My friend who works as a pro photographer set up a small office to meet clients & set up contracts so he didn't need to work at home.
It was more of sound/distraction issue than security but it was one of his concerns.

I would not under-estimate some strangers or people you are not familiar with.

I read a media report from south Florida of a motorist who was shot at by the driver of a disabled vehicle on the highway. :eek:
He went to render aid & the driver started blasting.
 
I have done numerous FTF sales of firearms and related items over the past few years. My experience tells me to:

1) When looking at the ID, check the experation date, and make sure the picture matches, especially if you live close to a state border. Remember, buying/selling firearms across state lines is illegal.

2) Use public places. Yeah, I know the person looking at my ID will see my address, but I prefer to not deal in my home. I like being somewhere where there are other people close enough to dissuade a person from drawing a weapon, but far enough away so as not to cause a disturbance.

3) Use Facebook or forums ahead of armslist. Facebook firearms sales are some of my favorites- I can often get details about someone with little trouble, and if things go south, there is a community of others who can spread information. I do business on armslist, but it's definitely not my favorite.
 
FFL holders; transfers....

To my limited knowledge, PA does not allow private sales for handguns. That to me makes sense.
The state I live in now is fairly open but Id still feel better going thru a FFL holder/local gun shop.
One place near me in a low end area no longer does any handgun FFL transfers due to a lot of fraud/waste/abuse.
I wouldn't put a lot of faith in soc media either. "Catfish" incidents are becoming more common. :rolleyes:

CF

PS; Doing security work in a chain hotel in 2007, I had a strange guy come into the lobby around 230am with a Florida DL with a home address from Osaka Japan! :eek:
The ID looked so fake but the guy acted so "honest". :mad:
 
They could be surveilling your home interior for a later robbery/burglary. Or take you on the spot.
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I never said to invite the guy in for tea and crumpits! That's what garages (or porches) are for. If you have a reloading bench that you want to keep secret, that's what tarps are for. At least in my garage, I know where my hidden gun(s) is located. I have the advantage, because I know my own house, my garage, and my neighborhood.

Some guy coming into the garage of my house isn't going to set me up for a burglary, any more than paying some guy to cut down a dead tree in front of my house.:rolleyes:
 
What?.....

If you've watched any "police procedural" cop shows in the last 20 years or read any media sources, you'd see there are many unsuspecting home owners or consumers who get into these scams.
It is true that many people do lawn care, low skill labor, service work etc w/o incident but are they buying-selling guns?
I recall a tragic incident of a family who sold a few jewelry items online & the young couple who seemed so "sweet & honest" turned into violent home invaders. :eek:
Covering things with tarp or only using your garage isn't going to cut it IMO.

The risks & dangers are not worth it.
 
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