Handgun vs. Taser / Bear Spray for Home Protection and Dog Question

J

Jasper616

New member
As a follow up to my previous post:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330608

I have a couple of questions:

1. What are the arguements for or against using a handgun vs a Taser and Bear Spray to protect my home?

2. I have 2 Labrador Retreivers in the home. While they are not attack dogs, if the BG(s) come, they will bark up a storm and run to them to see who's in the house which could put them in harm's way. How would you guys handle a situation like this?
 
If it is home defense, which a lot of the questions are geared towards, then there is only one answer I give--12 gauge, pump action. There is no more deterring sound than hearing that load chambered. And if it is stopping power you are seeking, this baby has it all.

Why mess with something that will be difficult to aim in the dark. Or something that when you are half groggy from from sleep being awaken in the middle of the night, you have to aim precisely . When you do not have too. The 12 gauge offers a great deal of leverage when negotiating. And it covers a wide area.

Now I know this is a handgun forum, so get the riot model with a pistol grip. And there you have a great BG stopper. And on weekends, throw on the traditional stock and barrel, and take your Labs out for a time to remember in the woods.:D

Bear spray:confused:

I have bears on my property, so I have had my share of run in with bears. And I have yet to stop a bear with bear spray. So I am not so sure how that is going to stop the determined BG. Unless he is in bed with you. Which then is too close for comfort. The 12 gauge again is an odds on better bet.:D

Now for the taser. Haven't we seen too many of those reality cop shows where they taser the dude several times, pile several cops all over his drug riddled carcass, and the BG gets up for more. I have yet to see a BG take more than a couple of rounds of buckshot and come back asking for more. No question, it is the 12 gauge.

There you have it. The all-purpose home defense weapon of choice. And it carries the NRA's "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval".:p
 
My experience with dogs suggests that they're good at detecting a problem but will expect their owner to handle the problem. Attack-trained dogs will fight humans (and anything else) and will not stop until brain-dead. But regular dogs will hide behind their masters.


Bear-spray going in one direction while bullets go in the opposite direction does not sound like a match.
 
Why mess with something that will be difficult to aim in the dark. Or something that when you are half groggy from from sleep being awaken in the middle of the night, you have to aim precisely . When you do not have too. The 12 gauge offers a great deal of leverage when negotiating. And it covers a wide area.
Click to expand...

I agree, a 12 Gague is a great choice, but you make it sound fool proof. It isn't. Have you ever shot a 12 Gague with buckshot at 7 yards (common HD distance)? It does not cover a "wide area". You still have to aim the thing. For that reason, forget the thought of the pistol grip. Use a regular shotgun, maybe with a shorter barrel, but keep the full stock and regular forearm.
 
Jasper,

Here's an article about the pros & cons of pepper spray: www.corneredcat.com/Gear/pepperspray.aspx. It includes advice about how to use the stuff, which is not nearly as intuitive as the sales pitches say. In a home environment, the biggest drawback to pepper spray use is that you WILL get just as much of a dose as the intruder does. I'd say that's fairly significant, enough to make its use contra-indicated, but that's your call.

Re tasers for self-defense, check out this thread in the T&T forum: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321542 Most department policies require cops to have deadly force available whenever a Taser is deployed, and that's for good reason. They really aren't a defense tool, but a compliance tool; when in immanent danger of death, most departments tell their cops to use deadly force and not muck around with the Taser.

If you're going to rely upon a firearm (any firearm, long gun or handgun) for defense:

  • You need training. If you're new to guns, a single day with a capable trainer can literally save you years of frustration and wasted ammunition, not to mention potentially saving your life since very few (basically none) beginners are really able to be as safe with guns as they need to be without a more experienced person pointing out their unintentional slip ups.

  • You must weigh the emotional, ethical, moral, and legal consequences of killing another human being, and decide that those consequences are worth it to you. If for whatever reason you are not prepared to take the life of someone's child, someone's lover, someone's parent, in order to save your own life, then firearms are not for you. No shame in that, but count the cost before you buy a defense gun. It would be horrific to discover that you could not live with having done something like that, after you'd done something like that.

  • You need regular practice. Don't let anyone fool you into believing that practice doesn't matter, or that a certain type of firearm is so magical that it would do the job without human aid. As John Farnam puts it: "Just as cars that "drive themselves" are currently unavailable, guns that are effective in the hands of the untrained and willfully incompetent exist only in the minds of the naive."

Hope all this helps.

pax
 
First, you need to train your dogs to come to you when called and to stay with you. If you are the target in a home invasion or burglary, etc. your dogs are fine for setting the alarm but they need to get out of the way once the alarm has been "barked". I have four dogs, ranging in size from fifty pounds to 140 pounds. In the daytime, they have the fenced yard to watch over with two doggie doors into the house. At nite, we "pull in the perimeter" and lock the dogs inside the house with us. They are not attack dogs but their alert mode is very intimidating. When I "tell" them to get-outa-da-way, they move back.

Second, assorted types of pepper sprays work fine most of the time on most people....with Most being the key word. They're fine for police officers to give them other options besides lethal force but they always have a Plan B in case Plan A (Pepper spray) doesn't work. I once used a whole can of law enforcement (It's my other job!) type pepper spray on a bad guy and it didn't faze him at all. That same guy was Tased by my partner. (Plan B) He pulled the wires out and kept coming. We finally got him under control by piling lots of people on him. (Plan C)

In a home invasion or drug crazed attacker scenario, you probably wont have lot's of freinds there to help you so Plan C is out. In a closed environment, pepper spray will affect you almost as much as the bad guy. A Taser works most of the time, if you get both barbs into him and if he doesn't manage to pull the wires out. However, what if there's more than one bad guy? A Taser has to be reloaded for the next "shot" and once you drop the empty cartridge, you loose control over the first guy....who's now going to be really upset because you shot two little barbed arrows into him!

A firearm really is the best defense for a home type scenario. The type of firearm is up to you. In my home, my Wife and I both have handguns close by the bedside but they're just to get us to the pump shotguns....which are just to get us to the gun safe where the real fire-power is.

I often get asked "what's the best defense for me in my home"? My answer is always the same: A little dog for the alarm and a big gun for the defense.

Now having said that, I have to add one thing. I often get asked about the size of firearm to get for home defense. The answer is: The biggest one that you can shoot well. My Mom was getting to old and frail for the massive revolver that she usually depended on but she liked the intimidation factor of the huge muzzle bore. She started carrying a big .22 caliber revolver but it had a counter bored muzzle. From the front, it looked like a .45. It was only a .22 but she fired Vipers out of it and could pop an eyeball on the move at 25 paces with it. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.

Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
Mac's Shootin' Irons
http://www.shootiniron.com
 
First, you need to train your dogs to come to you when called and to stay with you. If you are the target in a home invasion or burglary, etc. your dogs are fine for setting the alarm but they need to get out of the way once the alarm has been "barked". I have four dogs, ranging in size from fifty pounds to 140 pounds. In the daytime, they have the fenced yard to watch over with two doggie doors into the house. At nite, we "pull in the perimeter" and lock the dogs inside the house with us. They are not attack dogs but their alert mode is very intimidating. When I "tell" them to get-outa-da-way, they move back.
Click to expand...

Very good advice.
Your dogs MUST be trained to follow your commands in a HD situation---they can get in your way and be a real problem if things go bad.


VERY VERY few dogs will actually attack in a HD situation---even some "trained in protection" dogs will not attack in a HD situation---get them off of the comfort of the training field and helpers and trainers that they know and they will not perform. They will bluff a lot but will not engage.
These dogs are only good for "early warning" and must get out of the way if need be.
You should start a training process using a simple two word command such as " GO ROOM" or something and pick a bedroom that they go to when they hear that command---every time with or with out distractions.

If problems ever arise, you don't want to be knocked over by scared dogs with a BG in your house.
 
Why would I choose a less than lethal method when I'm justified in using lethal force? The would be burglar/murderer has made his gamble when he comes in my residence to do my family harm. I will see to it that he fails and will not get a chance to try it a second time, after all the second time it might only be my wife and kids who are home. There is no way I would bring a taser to a gun fight, why the heck would you want to? Tasers operate on batteries, I believe I would trust gunpowder over batteries any day. Think of the consequences if the taser is not effective either buy user error or equipment failure. Even if the taser were deployed correctly and did what its suppose to do, not all people are effected by the taser, most are affected by bullets placed properly.



ourjob.jpg
 
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I wouldn't worry about dogs. Dogs are just dogs. My worry would be that they get between me and the BG and stop the bullet that was meant for the BG.
 
All of this is strictly my opinion, and not meant to replace that of sound judgment or your own research into the legalities of such senarios.

Here's my answers

1. Someone is in your home. They have made the decision to risk their life to invade your home, and by doing so you can only assume they are there to do very bad things to you and your family. You have made the decision to stand your ground, to defend the lives of you and your family. What you need to do is stop them. What has more stopping power out of a tazer, bear spray, or a firearm? A tazer will stop 99.9% of all people... for 5 seconds at a time. If they break the wires then you have to reload. Also when trusting your life to something that requires batteries to operate think about this: If the batteries die, so do you. Tazers are nice tools, but to be used properly they require training that does not come in the box.

Will bear spray stop them? No. It will cause them to flee or to stumble around blindly searching for a path to flee. At the very most it will cause them to fall to the ground and surrender. This does not stop them. At any moment and time they can ressume doing bad things to you and your family. Any human being is still capable of rendering lethal force while suffering the effects of bear spray, pepper spray, mace, etc.

Will a firearm stop them? Used properly, yes it will. A double tap of anything .380 and up in JHP will effectively stop most BG's. If that doesn't stop them, repeat until it does stop them, you run out of ammo, or LE shows up.

Less than lethal = minimal if any stopping power. If all you have is a tazer or bear spray then by all means use them. They still give the advantage of distance. That's something that baseball bats, knives, clubs, etc. do not. If the BG is close enough to use those tools on he/she is close enough to take them away and use them against you. If BG's try to do bad things to me or my family I will try my best to stop them. That means using the tool with the most stopping power available. That tool would preferably be a firearm.

2. Let them do their job. I love my dogs like my own children, but given the choice of putting the dog in harms way or my child, it's the dog every time. While the dogs are taking care of the BG get your distance, get your phone, get your gun. If you're worried about shooting at the BG and accidentally hitting your dogs, then don't shoot at the BG unless he's about to use lethal force against you or the dogs. Range time is a great investment in scenarios like this. If your dogs are not able to eliminate the threat then use your firearm, tazer, hair spray, etc.
 
Gun + Dogs

The spray is limited in range and is as likely as not to effect you as much as your attacker. If your attacker has a gun, it is bad news for you. It also has a much shorter range and will not work as well at close range if the attacker is able to put his hand in front of it or grab it.

The taser is also range limited and will not work through any hard barrier. It is questionable how well it will work through heavy clothes and at certain angles. Tasers are interesting too. If they work, you're pretty much in the clear. If they don't, you're in deep trouble. There's no intimidation factor if you miss. (unlike with a gun)

If you're dogs will wake you up, and you have a gun & flashlight, and you let your intruder know it, chances are you won't need to discharge it.

Lastly, if your attacker brings a gun to your taser- or bear spray-fight, it has just become a gunfight. You can spray him and he can still shoot back. He will not care if he hits someone or something else. He's just going to shoot in your general direction.

pax made a good point about thinking if you're willing to take a life to defend those of you and your family. Think about that.

As for practice, I try to go a minimum of twice a year, but it is usually a lot more often. At least twice a month.
 
Jasper:

Tasers and Chemical Sprays are generally Fire and Flight weapons. In other words, they are meant to be used, and then you run away from your attacker.

If you are inside your home, cornered by someone who has broken into your home, where exactly are you going to run to??

Having dogs is a big plus, and that alone may well stop any potential burglar or robber, as they don't want a lot of noise and commotion.

What you should do first is to make your house harder to break into. Make sure that you have good dead-bolts on all external doors, and have good locks installed on any sliding glass doors too. Make sure all windows are secured too. Burglars will often pass on a how if it is too much work to get inside. In any event, that is your first line of defense.

If someone still manages to get inside, then at that point they are already committing crimes. I would advise grabbing a good handgun and your phone, and even retreat to a back room if you have to, and call 911 and get the police on their way. Once that is done, you could then confront the intruder at some point if you end up being threatened, or if he or they start to harm your dogs.

A shotgun is a very poor weapon for use inside the confined quarters of an average sized home. Way too big and bulky. A Smith and Wesson M&P pistol in .45 ACP would be an excellent home defense gun for you. It holds 10 rounds in the magazine, the maximum allowed by California State law.

And since you live in San Francisco, I would definitely recommend that you put yourself into a complete defensive mode if your home is invaded, and not try to go out of your way to force any confrontation. The leaders of San Francisco don't even want their citizens to be able to own handguns.

I don't have much confidence that they will be supportive of any civilian killing another person, even if it is done inside your own home to someone that has broken in.

.
 
I have a lab mix and won't own a vicious dog. She may be just a huge lapdog but the bad guys don't know that. Also homeowners insurance becomes a seriously expensive problem to find if you have any vicious breed of dogs. Too many pitbull bites neighbor kids lawsuits. Personally I prefer a big baby with sharp ears and a loud bark.

As I said in my earlier post... checking out breaking glass or kicked in doors is not your job. Your job is to hunker down with the family in a single defensible spot - a bedroom or hallway and let the police check out the noise. One person alone cannot safely clear a house. You need someone watching your six and you need someone watching to make sure the bad guys aren't slipping into cleared rooms while you're checking the closet in the next. Let the police handle clearing the house! That means there is no reason to be using bear spray and a taser becomes a problem if the dart doesn't stick or there are two bad guys. Keep in mind that in your home you are only reaching for a weapon because of the assumption of a deadly threat.

Also keep in mind reaction time. If the threat is within 20' and charges you may not have time to react and draw and fire before he strikes. You have less than 1 second to decide taser or handgun and bring it to bear and fire. I strongly suggest that you attend a couple of local classes. Many instructors will even loan you a gun. They will cover the legal, functional, and tactical aspects of self defense with a gun. Learn from some experts and the not the chairborne commando at the local gun shop. ;) It's really not expensive.

Finally if you're that concerned then you may want to really harden your home. Solid doors with properly installed locks. Security security film on the windows to make breaking through an absolute bear. Etc. Think in terms of a layered defense.

  • Light is your first line. Bad people hate doing crimes in a well lighted area.
  • A dog that will bark to alert you to a noise in the back yard.
  • Secure entry doors and secure windows. This can be extended to solid core doors with locks for the bedrooms.
  • Alarms to alert you to break ins and scare off bad people.
  • Consider an X10 one button solution to turn on every light in the house in the event you hear a noise. It will scare the crap out of a burglar and help prevent accidentally shooting at a family member coming home unexpectedly.
  • A weapon to use as a last ditch method of method of self defense.
  • Last but not least a set of contingency plans for each perceived threat. Fire, flood, earthquake, break in, social unrest. Every family member need to know where to hunker down in the house, and where to meet if not home.
 
FWIW, . . . most door kickers like the folks inside to be asleep or involved in something else.

For that reason, I determined a long time ago, . . . a handgun is my best option, . . . I can have it up, aimed, and emptied at an invader before most folks can find the shotgun or rifle.

Spray or tasers are purely non lethal stop gap items, . . . never designed to do duty as defense against a lethal human attacker.

BG comes in my place, . . . a left turn at the door will allow him to rob, pillage, and plunder to his gizzard's content, . . . a right turn, . . . and he and I will discuss his further option (not plural), . . . being retreat while he still can.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
As I said in your other post-a good 4" barreled handgun in .38 Special is all you need. You don't need a .357. Used S&W .38s are abundant, cheap, and easy to use. A shotgun is a formidable weapon if you have the room to use it. At across the room distance, the pattern spread will be less than 2 (two!) inches. Don't buy into the "you don't have to aim it" or "the sound will make them run" stuff, and DON'T get a pistol grip-only shotgun. Those are the remarks of people who like to hear themselves talk, but have little idea what they are talking about.
 
I have an 870 full of 1buck loaded next to my bed, one is in the chamber, I don't want to depend on my already poor memory when I am awakened suddenly. I also have a S&W model 36 in my dresser drawer and a model 58 in my nightstand. I'm grabbing the 870 first which although has no pattern spread at indoor distances it usually is a one-shot-stopper at those distances. I guess the No. #1 in 458 would have the same effect but I'm mildly concerned with overpenetration.
 
For the house,I would have a handgun or shotgun.

If a guy is going to mess with you at YOUR HOUSE-HE'S already made a decision you don't mean 'jack'.

If you can carry,I'd carry at least a 38 snub revolver where it was legal and then you carry pepperfoam everywhere else.

Pepper foam is not like pepper spray.

It will project ahead fairly accurately on a slightly windy day.

Pepper spray might just get both you and the bad guy on a windy day.

Whatever you decide to get-you need to train with it.

Finding out something does not work for you when someone is trying to kill you or your wife and kids is a real bad deal.
 
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