I have been really wanting to buy a handgun so I can start shooting steel competitions and maybe IDPA. Problem is, I'm not 21 until September. So, I was on the ATF website and they stated that a non FFL person can transfer a weapon to another person who lives within the same state. Does this apply to handguns? And to those under 21? If so, are there any accompanying forms that need to be filled and filed? I was going to contact the ATF to get the lowdown on this, but I know people on here are quite knowledgeable so maybe I won't need to. Basically, if this is legal, I want to know the correct way to do it so neither I nor the person who is transferring it will get in any kind of trouble.
handgun transfer
- Thread starter rifleman8
- Start date
Contact the ATF to verify, anyway, or at least verify advice you get here on the appropriate federal and state websites.
That said, I was at the LGS yesterday, and they had copies of an ATF notice on the wall that said federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to persons under 18.
Your state may have tighter restrictions.
But verify for yourself. It is a potential felony if you get it wrong.
That said, I was at the LGS yesterday, and they had copies of an ATF notice on the wall that said federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to persons under 18.
Your state may have tighter restrictions.
But verify for yourself. It is a potential felony if you get it wrong.
Mleake is right. Fed law prohibits sale of a handgun to anyone under 18 and also prohibits an FFL sale to anyone under 21. That means that Fed law allows a private sale to someone between the ages of 18 and 21. State law, however, may be another thing. I can't answer for PA - you'll have to research that.
The ATF will give you the runaround, and you will likely get contradictory advice.
An FFL cannot transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. That's a restriction on them, not on you. You can legally own one at 18, though there might be some state-level restrictions on where you can have it. You might have some trouble buying ammo as well, but again, there's no law against having it.
It is perfectly legal for someone to purchase it, then give it to you as a gift.
An FFL cannot transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. That's a restriction on them, not on you. You can legally own one at 18, though there might be some state-level restrictions on where you can have it. You might have some trouble buying ammo as well, but again, there's no law against having it.
It is perfectly legal for someone to purchase it, then give it to you as a gift.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
It's going to come down to what the Pennsylvania law is. I have a vague recollection that Pennsylvania is one of those States with some restrictions on private party transfers, but I'm not completely sure.Tom Servo said:
The OP will need to look into Pennsylvania law on the question.
State Law counts more than the ATF when it comes to 18-21 year olds.
The ATF states that a Federaly licensed Firearms dealer (FFL) cannot SELL to anyone under 21, that is all it states.
It does not say that a person 18-21 cannot PURCHASE a firearm (yes, includes a pistol). It also does NOT say that a person under 21 cannot inheirit, OWN, or possess a firearm (including a pistol). Those all come under your state laws.
If it is legal in your STATE for a person to own, possess, and purchase Face to Face, go that way...but understand you state law first. (PA has no restrictions that I know of)
The ATF states that a Federaly licensed Firearms dealer (FFL) cannot SELL to anyone under 21, that is all it states.
It does not say that a person 18-21 cannot PURCHASE a firearm (yes, includes a pistol). It also does NOT say that a person under 21 cannot inheirit, OWN, or possess a firearm (including a pistol). Those all come under your state laws.
If it is legal in your STATE for a person to own, possess, and purchase Face to Face, go that way...but understand you state law first. (PA has no restrictions that I know of)
Fishing_Cabin
New member
OP,
The relivant statute is: 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6111/sale-or-transfer-of-firearms/
A FFL is bound by the federal laws dealing with age to purchase. Going by what is in bold, it seems that if you want to own a handgun in PA it will have to be gifted to you by a parent. After you are 21 you can purchase from any other legal way.
Also, keep in mind question 11a on the 4473.
Just FYI, feel free to research it yourself.
Have a chipper day!
The relivant statute is: 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6111/sale-or-transfer-of-firearms/
A FFL is bound by the federal laws dealing with age to purchase. Going by what is in bold, it seems that if you want to own a handgun in PA it will have to be gifted to you by a parent. After you are 21 you can purchase from any other legal way.
Also, keep in mind question 11a on the 4473.
Question 11a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.
ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g),, or (x).
Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11a., and may proceed to question 11b
Just FYI, feel free to research it yourself.
Have a chipper day!
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Thanks for that. I thought there was a wrinkle or two in Pennsylvania.
Thanks Fishing Cabin, I figured there was a hitch somewhere. Basically, for me to be 20 and own a handgun, it must be a gift from a parent. I'm a little confused as to the "Actual Buyer/Transferee" section. If I'm understanding correctly, according to this, "You are the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party," a parent would be the actual buyer if they were to gift it to me.
However, I'm confused as to the actual ownership. I thought that handguns were registered to the owner by serial number. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 states that,
I wouldn't want a parent to gift me the firearm but still have it registered as theirs. Really, I don't know anything about handgun purchasing.
I can't stand legal jargon, it confuses the heck out of me. Is this something the local PD would be knowledgeable in? Maybe a trip there would help clear things up.
However, I'm confused as to the actual ownership. I thought that handguns were registered to the owner by serial number. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 states that,
So maybe I'm completely wrong?
I wouldn't want a parent to gift me the firearm but still have it registered as theirs. Really, I don't know anything about handgun purchasing. I can't stand legal jargon, it confuses the heck out of me. Is this something the local PD would be knowledgeable in? Maybe a trip there would help clear things up.
Spats McGee
Administrator
To be slightly hair-splitting, and just a little more precise, an FFL is bound by both state and federal laws dealing with age of purchase. It's just that no states (AFAIK) have an age requirement above that mandated by federal law (21). That means that complying with federal law is also compliance with state law.Fishing_Cabin said:
Note also that state law may contain other requirements with which the FFL (or even a private seller) must comply before selling a handgun to a potential purchaser, such as verifying that the purchaser has a purchase permit, or waiting an allotted number of days before transferring the pistol to the purchaser. You'll need to check your state laws for these.
There is nothing under federal law to prevent one non-prohibited person from purchasing a firearm as a gift for another non-prohibited. IOW, if Al (fictitious, but not a prohibited peson) goes down to Frank Fletcher's Famous FFL shop (fictitious, but I like the alliteration) and sees a pistol that he thinks would make a great gift for Bob (also fictitious, also non-prohibited). Alfred can buy it, mark himself as the actual purchaser, and go give it to Bob. I'm sure that Bob will be very happy. However, if Bob gave Al some money and asked Al to go pick up that nice gun from FF's FFFL shop, then Al would not be the "actual purchaser" within the meaning of the relevant laws, and cannot make the purchase. If he does so, he has: (a) engaged in a straw purchase; and (2) would have to lie on the 4473 where it asks if Al is the actual purchaser. These are big no-nos, as in felony-type no-nos.rifleman8 said:
Nope. There's no federal firearm registry. I haven't done a survey, but I would also guess that in most states, there's no registry. Certain jurisdictions do have registration requirements, though. DC, NY, CA, IL come to mind. I'm afraid that I don't know what PA does on this.rifleman8 said:
Perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you're going to go visit them, be sure that you do so before taking action to purchase a handgun. I would also suggest reviewing your local and state laws and, if it still doesn't make sense, find a local attorney with some experience in firearms laws and go get a short consult on the matter.rifleman8 said:
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Spats, I hope you forgive my mistake of not including that a FFL needs to adhere to state laws also.
The below may also be of some help for you since it explains it with out some of the legal wording.
From http://www.pafoa.org/law also please note,
The statute 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms, list the exceptions of gifting to a child, grandchild, spouse, or similar.
If you want to go speak with someone in law enforcement, I will recommend that you go to the sheriff's office for the county you live in, and speak to the person there who deals with firearm issues. Most Police departments do not handle the permiting process, though there are exceptions. Speaking with a lawyer who is experienced with this area of law is a good thing as well. Also feel free to research this yourself.
rifleman8 said:
The below may also be of some help for you since it explains it with out some of the legal wording.
From http://www.pafoa.org/law also please note,
The statute 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms, list the exceptions of gifting to a child, grandchild, spouse, or similar.
If you want to go speak with someone in law enforcement, I will recommend that you go to the sheriff's office for the county you live in, and speak to the person there who deals with firearm issues. Most Police departments do not handle the permiting process, though there are exceptions. Speaking with a lawyer who is experienced with this area of law is a good thing as well. Also feel free to research this yourself.
Spats McGee
Administrator
I hope you didn't think I was "calling you out," FC, because I wasn't. Yours was just one of those posts that made me think, "well, he's right, but there's this one tiny wrinkle that I just have to add."Fishing_Cabin said:
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Not at all Spats...I do my best to read, and reread my post here when trying to point people in a direction for facts. Sometimes my mind decides to take a vacation for a few and I miss something.
No worries mate, G'day
No worries mate, G'day
Fishing Cabin, I read through the PA statutes you linked, and the only reference to age that I could find prohibited transfer to or possession by a person under 18. I did not find a reference to a requirement for age 21, but it's possible I just missed it.
If you found a specific requirement that the OP wait until he is 21, could you provide the exact subsection and paragraph?
(Not calling you out, I just failed to find it.)
If you found a specific requirement that the OP wait until he is 21, could you provide the exact subsection and paragraph?
(Not calling you out, I just failed to find it.)
Fishing_Cabin
New member
MLeake said:
From what I gathered it dealt with in
From what is listed under the above, in bold, requires a person to "transfer a firearm only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office." Since a dealer/importer/manfacturer are covered under the FFL system, it seems logical that they fall under the ATF age requirements. Perhaps there may be a way to do a transfer or sale through an importer/dealer/manufacturer in Pa for someone under 21, but if so, I am at a loss to find a reference for that. As to the procedure of the county sheriffs office, I have been unable to find something concrete to cite for that also.
As I mentioned earlier it seems a person 18 and up, gifted a handgun it seems to be exempted by the same paragraph.
Perhaps others may know of another way that I could not readliy cite. If so, I would be glad to make note of them myself.
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Spats McGee
Administrator
OK. Now I want to make sure that I understand PA law on this. I've dug through the statutes, but I'd like to run this past y'all. FC, I'm depending on you to correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand this correctly. In very broad strokes:
1) Persons between 18 and 20 may possess firearms, both handguns and long guns
2) All firearms transfers must go through a licensed dealer (or the sherriff's office), who must act as if he or she was the actual seller, excepting spousal and parental and grandparental transfers
3) The dealer may not transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21.
Does that sound about right?
Edited to add: The above assumes that all persons involved are non-prohibited persons.
1) Persons between 18 and 20 may possess firearms, both handguns and long guns
2) All firearms transfers must go through a licensed dealer (or the sherriff's office), who must act as if he or she was the actual seller, excepting spousal and parental and grandparental transfers
3) The dealer may not transfer a handgun to anyone under the age of 21.
Does that sound about right?
Edited to add: The above assumes that all persons involved are non-prohibited persons.
sourdough44
New member
Do you live with or close to your Mom or Dad? No reason to complicate a simple issue.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Spats, thats what I see in the law. The unique issue with PA law is the requirement in section (c) for a private purchase to be through a FFL, or sheriffs office, with the noted exceptions.
Pa did a good job to put most everything in to writing it seems, with some minor exceptions. Its just not always clear on the first read.
MLeake, no problem at all.
I hope everyone here has a wonderful day!
Pa did a good job to put most everything in to writing it seems, with some minor exceptions. Its just not always clear on the first read.
MLeake, no problem at all.
I hope everyone here has a wonderful day!