Handgun shipping by consumer - now I'm confused

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
We've talked about UPS, FedEx, etc. becoming unreasonable about shipping firearms, and failing to take responsibility for their own security problems. And, it has been suggested elsewhere (e.g. http://www.homestead.com/njccw/nationalccw.html ) that we use the U.S. Postal Service for shipping.

But, if a consumer wants to send a pistol back to the factory for work, isn't he / she limited, by law, to one of these irritating private carriers? Isn't it illegal for a consumer to ship a firearm via the U.S. mail? Thus, aren't consumers simply stuck with using these pirate, private carriers?

Thanks for any clarification.
 
As far as I know yes, we are.Only FFL holders are allowed shipments of firearms (even to manufacturers for repair) using USPS.

Idiotic, is it not?
 
I'm pretty sure you can ship a gun to the manufacturer for repair via USPS. You need to speak with your post master and request that he look this up in the regulations guide book.

------------------
So many pistols, so little money.
 
Go to USPS website for official regulations. Search under "firearms."

Very confusing, especially regarding handguns--regs. seem to contradict themselves regarding who is a lawful recipient of a handgun (sender must have FFL too, though)

Chances are if you go to ten post offices, you'll get ten interpretations of what you can and can't do :(
 
I am certainly not an expert, but the local Post Office recently advised me that only FFL holders could use the USPS to ship handguns.
 
Jeff:

In the past two weeks I have shipped 4 handguns. Three were for re-sale to individuals in other states and one was to a manufacturer. The laws regarding handguns and long guns differ so I will address only handguns. Also, the laws are obviously different for FFL holders so I will only discuss the regulations as they apply to non-license holders.

Beware, I am not an expert. I got my information from visiting with dealers (as we read the law from “The Book”), talking to my Postmaster and discussing the issue with the gal at the UPS counter and her supervisor. I also called the BATF and they confirmed my understanding is correct.

The United States Post Office uses the BATF’s definition of a handgun. The handgun is the receiver or frame and bears the serial number. The bottom line is easy to comprehend. Unless you have an FFL, you can not ship a handgun through the Post Office, period.

Shipping handguns via United Parcel Service requires Next Day Air. UPS doesn’t use the “federal” definition of a handgun. For the package to qualify as a handgun it must contain an assembled handgun or all of the parts needed to make a handgun. That means you can ship the frame UPS Ground in one box and the upper in another box. The frame must still go to an FFL holder. I have sent two Glocks to California to another TFL member. The lowers went UPS to his FFL dealer and the uppers went to him Priority Mail.

Anyone who can own legally possess a handgun can ship via “contract carrier” to the manufacturer or an FFL holder. Last week I sold my P7M8 to another TFL member “back east” (I am in Wyoming). My dealer told me to UPS directly to his dealer and to include my name, mailing address, physical address, and so on. I phoned the buyer’s dealer and he advised me that I could indeed “legally” ship directly to him. However, his own company policy required the handgun to come from my dealer. The receiving dealer preferred to have an FFL for his acquisition book because he would have no way to prove who I am if something went amiss, such as the firearm being stolen. One of our local dealers will only receive handguns from distributors with whom he has an account.

In my experience, we can complain all we want about the red tape placed on the shipping of handguns by Uncle Sam and the carriers. However, the receiving dealers in most cases have internal policies that are more restrictive than those imposed by the law.

It appears as though UPS has placed the restrictions on the shipment of handguns for three reasons. First is safety. They did have an employee injured when a loaded handgun discharged during package handling. Second is the problem of “part time” UPS employees stealing handgun shipments. Some employees were intercepting handguns and replaced the shipping labels with labels of their own. And the third reason? Caving in to the anti-RKBA bunch. While I am on a roll, read on.

Last week a major manufacturer of pistols shipped a handgun to me from their custom shop. I work in a school and I am a friend of the regular UPS route driver. Since I didn’t want the pistol coming to school, I asked the driver to keep an eye out for the package and leave it at another location. He delivered the pistol to the other location and stopped by my place of work to advise me of the delivery. As it turned out, the manufacturer did not ship the pistol Next Day Air. This is a violation of UPS policy, so the driver had to report the violation to his supervisor. The driver was really upset because he is an advocate of RKBA. He told me they are seeing a lot of handguns being shipped that are not going per company policy. Of course, UPS management is keeping track and if the policies continue to be abused by individuals, dealers, distributors, and manufacturers alike, UPS will just stop shipping handguns at all. The UPS driver predicted that in the next few years it would cost between $50.00 and $75.00 to ship a handgun if the trend continues. The whole deal is kind of upsetting.
 
Here's the skinny from US Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, Firearms:

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

* (a) It shall be unlawful -
* (1) for any person -
* (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in
interstate or foreign commerce; or

* (B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;


* (2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector
licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or
transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any
person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that -
* (A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to
preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from
whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to
preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in
compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector;

No mention of UPS, FEDEX, or the USPS. Of course, they can have their own policies.

Dick
 
Thanks for all the help. Looks like USPS is out, and that's what I surmised. So much for boycotting the other bozo's.

One last question. Since we obviously can't trust the shippers (at the least, due to theft), can a consumer be at least 'artful' in their description of the shipped goods? For example, when shipping to a manufacturer for repairs via UPS, is there any problem with shipping to 'Repair Department', and describing the goods as 'hardware' or such?

I am loathe to put 'firearm' on the package, as well as the manufacturer's name - sounds like a 'steal me' sign, these days.

Ankeny, we're almost there right now as far as cost. Last time I shipped a sidearm UPS next day air it went across the U.S., and the cost, without insurance, was $43! I couldn't believe it.

Thanks.
 
Federal law requires that you tell the carrier that the package has a firearm. The same law prohibits the carrier from identifying that the package contains a firearm. Just insure it for its full replacement value, including sales tax.
 
Jeff, the law states you must write "firearm" on the package. When I returned my pistol to Kimber for smoothing the trigger, I wrote "firearm" on the airbill. Then, my trusty FEDEX guy put the airbill on the package and put his barcode sticker over the word "firearm." Hey, I obeyed the law. I just didn't know those stickers could be placed anywhere.

Dick
 
The law not only does not require that a package be marked that it contains a firearm, it forbids a carrier from so marking a package or requiring a marking.
 
Here is the passage covering notification to the carrier and labeling by the carrier:

"It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped....No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm." 18 U.S.C. 922(e).


[This message has been edited by Cawdor (edited February 01, 2000).]
 
OK, let me beat this dead horse into dust. A little back and forth above, but I get the picture.

Then, is this practical - I give the shipper a separate, written note that the package contains a firearm. But the written paperwork, and the package itself would not display that word? After all, if they write 'firearm' on the receipt and insurance section of the shipping order, doesn't that still create the same potential theft problem?

I want to comply with the law, but I don't care to either add to a BG's firearms inventory, or lose a possibly irreplaceable firearm.

In short, what do you folks now do to minimize these problems? [After awhile, you begin to wonder if it wouldn't simply be easier to drive the damn thing to the factory, but then I'd probably get busted by an LEO back east for illegal transportation of a firearm. Great system we have here - no coincidence I would gather ...]
 
sorry for this blank message, please disregard

[This message has been edited by Emin (edited February 02, 2000).]
 
By law, all carriers are obligated NOT to indicate on the outside of the package the contents if it's a firearm. It's not supposed to be indicated in paperwork either.

Moreover, you don't have to give them a note in writting. Just mention what you're shipping.

In my case of shipping my Steyr to GSI, a clerk at FedEx had no way of knowing if GSI was in fact the distributor of Steyr pistols. It could very well be a garage-operated "enterprise" that belonged to a friend of mine. They just trusted me both times.

In fact, one of them thanked me for informing them it was a firearm. When I mentioned I was obligated to do so by law, she said thanks anyway for she was certain that tons of at least handguns are shipped across the country without being declared.
 
Emin:

1) Why do you say that written notice is not required? The statute says that the carrier must be given written notice.

2) Why do you say that the carrier cannot make a record that the package contains a firearm? The statute says only that the carrier cannot label the package.
 
Ankeny-
Never thought of myself as being from "back east".
I guess I am on the wrong side of the Mississippi(just).
Now that we have really muddied the waters
I have a buddy that has shipped handguns on three seperate occasions, via the USPS, for repairs.
He said that he informed them of what it was each time.
I thought it was only legal for FFL holders to do so.
Dave
 
Cawdor,

I'm talking purely from two of my personal experiences. Both took place at a FedEx station.

I walked in, put a gun box on the counter and said that it was a firearm I'd like to ship to its manufacturer. My subsequent question was: "Now, what's the proper procedure to do it?" To which I was told that as long as the gun went to a manufacturer or an official distributor of the brand, I could send it without filling out the paper work.

"What paper work?", I asked. "Well, in case if you were shipping it to someone else, you'd have to fill out some papers and show us a proof of you being an FFL holder", answered the clerk.

I wasn't asked to put any of this in writing, Cawdor. If it was a part of their policy, I could bet they would have obligated me to do so.

So, without much further ado, I packed my box and proceeded to filling out a shipping form. After reaching a part that said about a nature of the goods shipped, I asked what exactly I should indicate there -- whether it's dangerous goods, that is. "Since it's not loaded", the clerk replied, "then it's just a piece of metal so no, it's not dangerous".

Regarding your question if FedEx indicated anywhere in their paper work that it was a gun -- I was aware that by law a carrier was not supposed to indicate that on the outside of the package, but asked them anyway. They, of course, confirmed this AND mentioned that in fact, it wasn't going to be indicated anywhere.

Now, I must say that may be UPS has a different rule about putting "gun" in shipping documents as well as requiring their customers to type a letter explaining what's shipped and where or, I hope not, why.

As a result, I stand corrected in that yes, I shouldn't have said that "all carriers" to do it this way in my post.

But I bet you at least FedEx does...

Regards,

Emin

[This message has been edited by Emin (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
If you look at the wording of the regulation, you are not required to notify the carrier that the package contains a firearm if you are shipping to an FFL holder. However, I'm sure the carriers have their own policies and you might have problems with insurance claims if you concealed the contents of the package.
I have written to the ATF Firearms Technology Branchand asked for clarification on this part of the regulations.
 
I'm alittle confused at this point. Since a Curios and Relics Lisence is a FFL of sorts(type III), can it be used to ship a handgun through the U.S. Postal Service? Kind Regards,Quadcab
 
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