Handgun Lifespans

M

Mike H

New member
I have read with interest the piece on the XM9 trials even if certain of the "my best friend is a SEAL" participants did get to the teddy bear throwing stage. The issue of handgun lifespan was highlighted along with likely number of rounds, I believe the average for the Beretta 92 was about 17,000 or so. Well to me that aint so many folks.

Of more concern is the likely mode of failure when old smokey cashes in his last round. I have now heard of numerous Beretta 92 slide separation failures which resulted in the shooter looking like he was playing a harmonica minus teeth, I didn't know that the 92FS as opposed to the 92F earned its designation by virtue of an extra slide stop, I'd always wondered what the difference was.

So just how does your piece tell you when it's expiring, what number of rounds should this be occuring at and is slide separation THAT common a failure type in any time expired gun, I have enough trouble with flinch as it is !


Regards,

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
The danger of a handgun going KABOOM is part and parcel of the territory. It's a good idea to factor this occurence as rare as it may be from the get/go.

The M16 had numerous problems from it's inception but these bugs were worked out and now we find that even the Russians are envious of the .223 and have started re-equiping their troops with the 5.45 X 39, a facsimile of the .223.

Likewise the M9 has had some problems and is not without flaw but if slide splitting was rampant, I believe they would have been nixed long ago. Beretta was wise in quickly dealing with the problem unlike some other manufacturers in business now. Beretta's cannot tolerate ammo in the 60KPSI beyond the 4K round mark, if that much, and if the Army had not realized they were measuring pressures wrong. the problem might still be more of an issue than it is now.

Bottom line: Guns break. The sights fall off of Glocks,Beretta's can't handle +P+ ammo, Sigs experience frame cracking after the 10K round mark, 1911's have feeding problems, S&W Revolvers go out of battery and so on and so forth.

Be safe and savor the moment.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Yes, the difference between the 92f and the 92fs is the slide stop. If the slide separates it does not hit you in the face. It's just a small catch that stops the slide if it rides back too far...
 
I recently did some shooting with a .44 Smith&Wesson single action .44 Russian revolver made in the 1870s. It worked perfectly, but maybe "they don't make them like they used to"
 
I think it sounds like rationalizing a POS, however, not one handgun in a million fires enough rounds to wear it out. I have bought plenty of used handguns, mostly Colt 45 Autos and S&W revolvers that were used, like new, with no discernable wear. Often the original box of ammo was rec'd along with the pistol, sans a few cartridges.

These high round counts reported are Bull do-do, IMHO, many, many shooters I have personally observed try to skimp by with the cheapest ammunition they can possibly get and don't like to shoot that cheap stuff, even, very often! I intentionally exclude IPSC, pin shooters, and other gamers from the low round counts. Be careful of buying a gun from one of these guys, there may be a reason they are selling it! ;) FWIW

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
The reason I asked was because I personally put 300 rounds a week through my P228, as this equates to 15,000 rounds a year and I've had the gun for just over that it becomes an issue for me. People who buy guns and just walk around wearing them get neither my understanding nor my agreement, if I shoot a lot by general standards then all I can say is that I'm surprised.

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
Interesting to say the least. Just had a malfunction with my BHP 9mm. Trigger spring broke (impetus re engagement to slide & sear) which left the pistol in hammer back & would not (absolutely would not!) fire, no matter what I did. Have fired this particular pistol ~5K rounds & a stinking spring which has no real "mechanical advantage" (other than barely pushing on the particular "engagement" point) failed - a HUGE malfunction! rendering this most positive self-defense platform worthless.
Luckily, it was during plinking mode & not self defense.

Point being, that one must (probably) enact fairly severe preventative maintenance for defensive handgun (rifles & shotguns as well?) to ensure that your platform goes BANG at the most opportune moment.

I was most severely distressed at the failure of my most "always there" BHP.

That a BS $2 spring broke (which should never have - but, DUH, it did anyway) & rendered my defense platform inopperative caused me serious grief (& posible loss of life & worse if not "caught" when it happened).

We spend so much time & money on making absolutely certain that our ammo/mags combo function with absolute certainty & sometimes neglect the most basics of our platforms.

I have since ordered extras of EVERY spring in the shooter.
 
'Battery' is the position where the gun has all its' parts lined up, ready to fire. This term is usually applied to semi autos, but I suppose it could be applied to revolvers.

A revolver usually fails to return to battery when the cylinder is not properly indexed to fire the next round. This condition can have a myriad of causes, from the hand or sprocket being worn, the cylinder stop being out of alignment, or the crane being sprung (too many people watch the guy on TV slam the cylinder open, then snap it shut with a flick of his wrist; CRINGE!).

My experience with this is that it is a rare condition, given proper handling and maintainence. It did happen to me with a S&W M 60 J frame. The sprocket teeth became worn from lots of DA shooting. Basically, that pistol was a write off, as replacing the sprocket really didn't return it to proper condition. Unless the condition can be remedied by a hand replacement, it is usually difficult and expensive to fix.

On the other hand, I had a M 28 N frame in .357. I put over 100 lbs. of bullets, which I casted, through that revolver, and it was still in extremely tight condition afterwards. True, most of the loads were .38 Spl. with 158 gr. LSWC and 2.7 gr. Bullseye, but still, that was an awful lot of use.

I have a .45 ACP National Match made in 1967, and I have fired perhaps 20,000 rounds through it since I bought it new for $100. It is still extremely tight and accurate. All the loads were target loads, however, 4.0 gr. Bullseye with 200 gr. LSWC, which generates around 8,000 lup.

I suspect that any firearm fired with full power or +P loads most of the time will wear out eventually. I would not try and undertake to attempt this, however, as I suspect that it would take quite a while.

Walt
 
I don't know what the "beginning signs" would be on most guns. Mechanical items wear and with quality firearms I suspect the wear is so gradual that all but the most vigilant observer would not notice. I've had one that wore to the malfunction point (a Ruger Mark I)" and that involved wear to the trigger/sear assembly that allowed the gun to double. My guess is that the mechanical tolerances for quality guns is such that for those very few who actually wear one out - the critical malfunction "just shows up" one fine day.

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Jim Fox
 
I'm not a fan of Glocks, no flame(s) intended , but Chuck Taylor has certainly shed some light on this matter. He's had several articles over the years detailing the rounds through his gun and the few minor problems. Last count was well over 150,000? I also gather from his writing that his LW Commander has had scores of rounds through it w/o much hassle. Certainly, if plastic and alloy have not been much of an issue for him, will us "JoeAverage" shooters ever have to worry?
I for one do not consider worn/broke, and replaceable, parts to indicate unacceptable wear. Cracked frames or slides in a auto are so rare in the civillian sector as to be unheard of. I truly believe that certain Beretta failures were the result(s) of over-pressure ammo combined with the accelerated "shoot until it fails" military test protocols. :(
Mike H: are you are thoroughly cleaning your Sig after practice, and full-on detail stripping/cleaning it annually? If so, you MAY look into a new barrel at the end of your 2nd or 3rd year. If the accuracy/velocity has not degraded though, why bother? I hope you are changing out your recoil spring at least every 6 months? :)
 
The most fired pistol I ever heard of is an old Glock 17 at the factory range in Georgia. It now has close to one million rounds through it. Still all original parts except a magazine release, and recoil spring assembly.
So I don't think we ever have to worry about wearing out any modern firearms. Our worry should be where are we going to get all the ammo.........

[This message has been edited by fire512 (edited January 18, 2000).]
 
Been shooting the complete crap out of a pair of 9x19 Witnesses, going on six years, 10's of thousands of rounds through both (one is a hard-chromed Nowlin-barrelled lightly tweaked-by-me, other is STOCK), sometimes using a 41AE barrel, sometimes the stock one wears a 9x21 comped or 40S&W standard top end, both have been tested extensively with Major Nine, ZERO broken parts.

I own other guns that have been fired extensively, but these two EAA Witnesses just stand out.


I'd like to wear out a gun, just to see what it took.....




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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Fire512: My point exactly! ;)

In rough figures, if you shoot 1000 rounds of the cheapest factory hardball, in 45 that is $200; in 9mm that is $150. So, 10,000 rounds becomes $2000 or $1500. 20,000 rounds becomes $4000 or $3000. The acquisition value of the pistol is much less than the cost of ammunition expended. If you're worried about the cost, buy a new $500 pistol!

My Colt 45 Autos and Glocks will continue to shoot long after I'm gone, I'm sure! :D

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
When you re-load you can shoot more. And my Ruger 22 auto pistol has at LEAST 5000+ rounds through it with no broken parts.

In fact... the only thing I've broken on a pistol was the grips.

I DO worry about my P-A 63 auto, the alloy frame shows a lot of wear.. I'm still not convinced this one will last 10k rounds.

Dr.Rob
 
I have a Ruger Service Six that has been factory overhauled once and is on its second barrel; ditto my daily Security Six. In each case the precipitating factor was forcing cone erosion from many, many factory 110 and 125 gr..357 rounds. The guns themselves never stuttered; it's just that particles coming back in my face affect my concentration. I have cracked frames on M1911s; had K frames go out of time and lose sight leaves; seen SIGs break extractors; and seek J frames blow up. Anything mechanical can and does eventually break; but I think the Ruger Sixes and Glock 17s will outlast any of us.

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I know everyone is going to go BS after I say this, but, FWIW, this is a no-s__tter!

I have a NORINCO 1911A1 I bought for $225.00 right after they started importing them. I have documented over 120,000 rounds of factory standard ammo through it. I had the frame and slide MAGNAFLUXED and X-rayed at 70,000 rounds with no flaws noted, cost me about $125.00. It has had a new barrel, and 3 sets of springs, the wooden grip cracked and was replaced with a HOGUE wraparound model, and the slide stop was replaced with an extended model for operator comfort. Its loose as hell but it goes off EVERY TIME I pull the trigger and still puts all 10 rounds (CHIP MCCORMICK SHOOTING STAR) in the kill zone @25yds. I may put a new bushing and firing pin in it soon, BUT Probably won't mess with a good thing. It does however need to be refinished.
 
I would consider 300 rounds a week high. I get to the range once a month or may be twice. At those times I shoot about 200 rounds so in a year I average about 2000 rounds. I know that's nothing compared to others but it's still more than most of my budies. I like Glocks and SIG. I doubt I'll ever wear one or the other out.

Mike H,

Since you're a P228 shooter. Could you answer a couple of questions about them?

Have you noticed any gouging to the frame rails (midway between the muzzle an rear) and some slight wear to the frame shelves (the area around the hammer where the slide meets the frame)?

Is there anything I need to keep an eye out with this particular SIG Sauer pistol?

Thanks.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Guys,

Thanks for the replies so far, in reply to the earlier question, no I haven't replaced my recoil springs yet, but I will now if the recommended period is 6 months and I have about 14 months on the gun.

Tecolote - The main area of wear is around the frame shelf where the blue has worn off and the underlying metal is visibly polished but not gouged. I never shoot hot ammo and the gun is otherwise perfect in every way in spite of what I suspect are my less than perfect cleaning attempts. I shoot at the weekends and days off (when given permission by "The Manager") and I'll typically do at least 250 rounds in a session. I work pins on racks at 8 yards, pins on the ground at varying distances from 15 to 30 yards typically in batches of 3 that I engage as fast as I can shoot, placing the pins not only at different distances but in a wide arc. Finally for fun I shoot at pins that I perch on top of the 125 yard rifle racks typically getting 2 per clip which I find acceptable. This may not find favor with you pro shooters, but I just love to blaze away, that's the main reason I don't have a .40 (yet) the recoil of 250 rounds of ammo would make the whole experience less enjoyable for me. I love the 228 but would probably get one of the new polymer pistols if I had my time over again, possibly the new M9 from Steyr. To me handgun shooting is just plain fun, something I never want to lose sight of.

Regards,

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
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