Handgun Classes and Pistol Choice

T

TunnelRat

New member
Hi all,
This weekend I'm taking Handgun 104 at the SIG Academy. There's a description here:
https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/productdisplay/defensive-handgun-skills-handgun-104
I've done 102 and 103 as well, so I'm not new to the idea of taking handgun courses and I really enjoy them.

My question is this: if you've personally taken a handgun class, do you use the same pistol you carry? I bring this up because many people here carry smaller pistols for convenience. I'm not knocking this behavior at all; I'm a firm believer that it's better to carry something than nothing and a full size pistol that you never carry isn't really helping you. However I have seen folks in the aforementioned classes running smaller pistols (ala P938, 290RS, S&W Shield) and it can be a bit of a pain for them. Typically they only have so many magazines and if your magazine holds half as many rounds as the rest of the class you're simply going to have less time to practice the drills on the line because you're going to run out of ammo before everyone else. At the same time there's the old "train as you fight" mantra and you won't discover deficiencies in your own system if you don't test that system.

In my own case, I carry an M&P 9c. 12 rds of 9mm per mag so capacity isn't so much my concern. What it does have is a somewhat abbreviated grip. It's still a decent sized pistol, it's not micro by any means, but in a dynamic environment where I am moving a lot and shooting from various positions and with barricades at times, I can foresee a full size grip being a plus. In this case my P320c, VP9, or fullsize M&P could also go through this class. They have a similar trigger system (striker fired) so the training should be useful either way.

Anyway, I just thought it might be an interesting topic.

-TR
 
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TunnelRat,

This is a good question, and I'm not sure there is a good answer. With that said, here are my 2-cents.

I have taken several classes like you are describing here in Oregon. When I do, it is rare that folks with use their daily carry gun as they want to, "get through the class." Full-sized handguns make it easier to shoot well and quickly. My daily carry is a 1911 Commander, full-sized grip but shorter slide. It has always done me well in these classes.

One thing you could consider would be to put a finger extension on your magazines if they are available. They will help you get a better grip on your compact pistol.

The main goal of mine when I took these classes was to become a better shooter and more aware of safety and personal security. If you used a larger handgun than you normally carry, though you will miss some practice with your daily carry, you still will leave with good lessons.

Have a great time,
Tony
 
Very interesting question, luckily I prefer to carry mid-full size guns so shooting my carry guns a lot wouldnt be unpleasant. Though I shudder doing a course like that with my occasionally carried LCR.
 
no classes here, but from shooting IDPA and some interactions on my property with vicious dogs, i've learned about what works for me: full size striker pistols. simple, fast into action, no safety to get in the way, and good sight radius for accurate shooting.

bring what you carry. worst case, your decision will expose some flaws in your plans and you have to rethink what works for you. a new pistol is cheap compared to learning what you carry doesn't work when under pressure.

have fun.
 
I took 102 with an Academy-loaned P229 in .40, then 103 with my new P229 in .40. The P229 sits on my nightstand. My carry line-up features any of several striker-fired pistols in 9mm.

If I were you, I'd borrow a P320 to satisfy my curiosity about it. Whatever concepts and techniques you learn will be transferable to your preferred carry, which may end up being a P320.
 
I second boondocker's position. If your handgun is uncomfortable with which to train, you need to either carry a heavier gun or one chambered in a smaller caliber.
 
If your handgun is uncomfortable with which to train, you need to either carry a heavier gun or one chambered in a smaller caliber.
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I'm not sure what weight has to do with it. Size maybe. It has nothing to do with recoil, rather the surface area contact with the pistol (and even that more a personal preference). I do get your general point and I have actually considered moving to the 320c as opposed to the 9c for carry, I just haven't had the opportunity to carry the 320c enough to know that it will work full time for me.

As to the others, thanks for your comments. I actually do use the pinky extensions on my mags and it does help. My current plan it to run the 9c and see how it goes with the 320c as backup if needed.
 
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I am fortunate in that I have chosen an EDC that is absolutely shootable in either of the two configurations that I can run it in. It is (for sure!) not my most enjoyable handgun nor my most accurate and it isn't the one I like most or shoot best. But it is totally shootable and I do well with it, so it is the one that I do any classes, training or "organized" event shooting with.
 
I don't want to be guilty of exaggerating. To be clear it isn't that the 9c isn't shootable. I can shoot it hundreds of rounds with no issues. I'm merely acknowledging that compared to a fullsize grip or fullsize mags it isn't a bit of a trade in favor of concealability. Where S&W to make a 15 rd 9mm M&P, ala Glock 19, I'd be a happy kid. It's admittedly a Goldilocks situation.
 
I'm not sure what weight has to do with it. Size maybe. It has nothing to do with recoil, rather the surface area contact with the pistol (and even that more a personal preference).
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For a given caliber and barrel length, less weight means more free recoil energy. More free recoil energy likely translates into more felt recoil. Felt recoil cannot be quantified as best I know; free recoil energy or muzzle momentum divided by gun weight are perhaps the best surrogates. Surface area of the grip is something that matters, but this is difficult to measure and will tend to corrolate positively with gun size and larger guns tend to weigh more.

The handguns that are associated with recoil complaints are generally small and lightweight, or those chambered in a high powered caliber.
 
I would run the larger gun. The goal of the class is more about tactics and situational training then it is about shooting your particular carry gun accurately. You are

I would choose the gun you are going to shoot and run without issues which can distract from the "tactics" part of the training. If the training is good then you should be able to apply what you have learned to any gun. IMHO. I assume they are not teaching you how to "run" your particular gun but instead teaching you the fundamentals and foundations of how to deal with particular scenarios you might find yourself in.

I would choose the larger "more shootable" gun so that is is not a distraction. Especially as the day wears on and you get closer and closer to having shoot 400 rounds in about 8 hours. Any of the other guns you have listed should serve you well. P320c, VP9, or fullsize M&P.
 
For a given caliber and barrel length, less weight means more free recoil energy. More free recoil energy likely translates into more felt recoil. Felt recoil cannot be quantified as best I know; free recoil energy or muzzle momentum divided by gun weight are perhaps the best surrogates. Surface area of the grip is something that matters, but this is difficult to measure and will tend to corrolate positively with gun size and larger guns tend to weigh more.
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In 9mm I have not felt that recoil has been a limiting factor in any of the firearms I have owned (but I do not own any micro or pocket pistols). User opinion may and likely will vary. Surface area does correlate with weight, but frankly the difference in weight between a fullsize M&P and a compact M&P in this case is 2.3 oz. If you want to conduct a scientific study to find out if that will have a significant impact on the shooting experience at the 0.05 level, by all means go for it. However from my own personal experience relative to me, it is the length of the grip that has the larger impact on handling and comfort.

The handguns that are associated with recoil complaints are generally small and lightweight, or those chambered in a high powered caliber.
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I'm not denying that. But I do not consider the M&P 9c to be a pistol worthy of complaint about recoil, which was never my complaint in the first place. Recoil is a factor in the overall handling or a firearm. There are other factors, i.e. size, as well.

I would choose the larger "more shootable" gun so that is is not a distraction. Especially as the day wears on and you get closer and closer to having shoot 400 rounds in about 8 hours. Any of the other guns you have listed should serve you well. P320c, VP9, or fullsize M&P.
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I may or may not do a summary thread about the class, but I can tell you the end result. I ran the 9c for the first half of the class and the 320c for the second half. The grip size, given the pinky extensions, didn't prove to be an issue and I can actually shoot the 9c faster and ever so slightly tighter. However I have much more time on that trigger so that's not surprising to me. I do notice the lower bore axis of the M&P in speed drills, though I can't say it's dramatic.

The M&P did prove to be an issue as the day wore on, like you mentioned, but for another reason. The triggerguard of the M&P is not undercut very well (really very little at all). By the end of the first half of the class (~250 rds, 500 in total for the day) I had a nice little callus on the part of my middle finger rubbing against that triggerguard. I could have kept shooting the 9c, but it was starting to hurt and I wanted to focus more on tactics and skill development like you said then working through pain. Switching to the 320c, which does have a nice undercut below the triggerguard, helped prevent the callus from getting worse. I would agree with you that when I do another class I may very well not use the M&P 9c for that reason simply because of the length of the day, the amount of drawing, and the round count. In my ~200 rd range sessions I hadn't notice it before.
 
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I know I'm late saying this since you already took the class, but why not just use full size magazines and spacers? I haven't used one on an M&P 9c, but I have on an M&P 40c and I don't even realize I'm not shooting a full size gun. The full size magazine with a spacer (like x-grip) feels completely normal to me.
 
One could look at the class as being one where you learn skills beyond basic accuracy/grip/trigger control, draw from concealment, and other such things one could easily do on their own if they have progressed to the point of advanced training.


If you have a standard sized handgun. Say g19 and larger within reason... Then using one of those pistols allows you to focus on the lessons and the skill being taught, rather than the limitations of your daily carry weapon... And possibly neglecting the lessons at hand.

The point of these classes in to learn those skills. You then take what you learn and further practice and refine those skills by practicing on your own.

Doing a class and learning skills without continued practice is a waste... As you will never developed the skills fully and eventually loose them.

You can always incorporate your carry weapon into your practice with these skills on your own time. Learning any weaknesses of your carry weapon as you do so.
 
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