Had to happen: AD death in East Timor

Station: ABC 702 2BL Date: 10/August/2000
Program: THE WORLD TODAY Time: 12:21 PM
Compere: JOHN HIGHFIELD
Item: CORPORAL STUART JONES OF THE ADF WAS SHOT ACCIDENTALLY IN EAST TIMOR LAST NIGHT.
INTERVIEWEES: COLONEL GREG BAKER, ADF DEFENCE MINISTER JOHN MOORE


COMPERE:
Corporal Stuart McMillan Jones of Darwin became the second Australian soldier to die on active service in East Timor last night. His fatal wound came from the accidental discharge of a weapon when the vehicle in which he was travelling with other members of his platoon rode over a bump. The Australian Army says it's the first time an incident like this has figured in a death. The Australian/UN patrol was working in the dangerous border area near Maliana, notorious for the incursion of militia death squads from West Timor looking for trophies. It's an area for fire-ready weapons obviously.

Nevertheless, as Michael Vincent reports, there's a full-scale technicalinvestigation under way.

MICHAEL VINCENT:
Twenty-seven year old Corporal Jones was fatally shot by a rifle while riding in the back of an Aslav light armoured vehicle with five other soldiers late yesterday. Commander of the Australian contingent in East Timor, Colonel Greg Baker, explains how they believe a rifle accidentally went off.

COL GREG BAKER:
There were a number of rifles that were sitting in the back of the vehicle. They were sitting on some of the patrol's packs.
The vehicle that was moving at the time and crossing some rough terrain, it caused the vehicle to jolt, which we think possibly dislodged one or more of the weapons that were in the back of the vehicle. Then one of --- we think what's happened then was one of the rifles accidentally discharged, wounding Corporal Jones.

MICHAEL VINCENT:
The bullet hit the 27 year old in the upper,
left chest. Immediately his fellow soldiers from the Sixth Battalion began delivering first aid, and within minutes a Black Hawk helicopter carrying an air evacuation medical team arrived on the site. The medics managed to stabilise the young soldier before transferring him into the Black Hawk. They lifted off and headed for the United Nations hospital in Dili, but Corporal Jones didn't make it, dying enroute.

His fellow soldiers are left to wonder why the 27 year old was shot by one of their own weapons. Colonel Baker says it's procedure for troops to keep their fully loaded weapons on safety while travelling.

COL GREG BAKER:
The weapons are carried in a loaded state because the men and women that are serving across here are serving on active service
in a very dangerous area of operations. It's normal procedure that the weapons are carried in a loaded state, and at this stage I really can't say whether there'll be any changes to those procedures. It'll be up to the board of inquiry to look at that sort of thing.

MICHAEL VINCENT:
Has an incident like this ever occurred before, even with no one being injured, or maybe even someone only being wounded?

COL GREG BAKER:
Not really, not an incident like this one, certainly not in my 26 years in the Army have I heard of a weapon discharging in the back of a vehicle in this fashion.

MICHAEL VINCENT:
It's the second Australian fatality since the
operation in East Timor began last September. The first Australian soldier died of a tropical disease.

Defence Minister, John Moore, says Corporal Jones' death was a tragic accident.

JOHN MOORE:
In the rush of the moment, in the rough terrain in which they were working, under the pressure in which they work, regrettably
accidents do happen from time to time. But the record, I think, has been -- considering the number of people we've had there, considering the conditions they're working under, I think they've done a very good job.

MICHAEL VINCENT:
A service will be held for Corporal Jones before his body is flown out of Dili today, with a further memorial service planned for tomorrow. Colonel Baker says the Australian troops, especially the 6th Battalion with whom Corporal Jones served, are troubled by the loss of the young soldier.

COL GREG BAKER:
They're feeling it obviously very heavily. He was one of their mates and had served with them for quite some time across there in East Timor, so they're taking it very hard at the moment.

COMPERE:
Colonel Greg Baker is Commander of the Australian Contingent to the UN Forces in East Timor, and Michael Vincent with our
story there.[/quote]

And from today's newspaper:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The handling procedures for Steyr rifles were were reviewed in the wake of the Somalia operation and new procedures were in force during the subsequent operation in Rwanda to avoid accidental firings.

On arrival at barracks, soldiers had to fire their rifles into sandbags and ensure no unspent bullets remained inside them, with the threat of penalties for anyone who failed to do so.[/quote]

Say what?? You unload the damn things by firing them into sandbags??

Something's fishier here than in the state of Denmark.

B
 
I would bet what they mean is that after the gun is unloaded they have to dryfire it into a sandbag backstop to ensure that it it unloaded. .

Of course I could be wrong and they could be complete morons. *shrugs*
 
Just about every admin building on a US Army base has outside it has a hunk of 12" metal pipe sticking up out of the ground at a 45 degree angle. The idea is that if you're under arms, you're supposed to clear your weapon before entering and then point it down the pipe and pull the trigger to make double-sure it's not loaded. Same idea with their sandbags in the field.

The Army also uses these when you exit the rifle range. I have seen these at a couple of civilian ranges and I wish more would put them in. It's a 3-second drill that can help prevent an AD.
 
Interesting points. I dont know much about Aussie personell carriers, but why in blazes would any intelligent person leave a loaded rifle unattended inside a vehicle moving around on rough terrain??? Call me silly but this seems like an accident waiting to happen. Also if this is such a HOT area why in Christ's name would anyone leave their weapons out of their hands.. I can just see it. Patrol ambushed, as the boys reach for their rifles someone knocks them off the packs and they scatter about the APC. Now did I pick up Cross-eyed Joe's rifle so I should hold 6 feet right to hit the guy shooting at me, or did I pick up my own??? But I sure am glad the central comitte adressed the issue of AD's by making sure that once the boys were home and in a safe environment they could unload their rifles without shooting each other upside the head. Sad for the needless death.

------------------
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
The Australians seem to be having a great deal of trouble with their Steyo AUG-1 rifles. A large number of non-fatal ADs have been reported,
 
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0008/11/pageone/pageone2.html

Army's rifles under fire as digger dies

By ANDREW CLENNELL

The type of rifle believed to have killed the Australian infantryman Corporal Stuart Jones in East Timor on Wednesday has been involved in many of at least 77 accidental discharges during the peacekeeping mission.

But the Government yesterday insisted that there was nothing wrong with the Austrian-designed Steyr-88 weapons.
One of the rifles is thought to have discharged into the 27-year-old Victorian's chest when the light armoured vehicle he was travelling in went over a bump near the border town of Maliana.

Corporal Jones was single and had arrived in Timor only on July 26, a defence spokesman said. He was "an exceptional soldier".
The Defence Department said training had been upgraded earlier this year after the high number of rifle accidents during the East Timorese operations.

The Defence Minister, Mr Moore, said the rifle would have been replaced if there was a problem. "I've got no reason to doubt the Steyr rifle," he said. "I've read that there's been some criticism of them ... but they would not be in East Timor in the hands of the ADF unless they were confident of their operation."

A board of inquiry will investigate the accident as soon as possible, a defence spokesman said. He said there had been 77 accidental rifle discharges involving Australian troops in East Timor up to February. Most are understood to have involved the Steyr, which is issued to most of the 51,000 Defence Force personnel.

The spokesman said training had been increased following the discharges, and he expected the number of accidents to have decreased. "We have answered questions like that in the past. We maintain there's nothing ... wrong with the rifle."
Corporal Jones was the second Australian soldier to die in East Timor. The first died from malaria.

The commander of Australian forces in East Timor, Colonel Greg Baker, said the accident happened soon after 5pm after Corporal Jones's section had completed a two-day patrol and boarded the armoured vehicle to return to base. "At one stage there was a jolt in the vehicle and tragically one of the weapons discharged into Corporal Jones's chest and left shoulder region," he said.

A Steyr rifle discharged and killed an Australian soldier in Somalia during peacekeeping operations. An experienced Sydney-based infantryman said yesterday that he believed the safety catch on the rifle could be unintentionally released during rough activity. "They keep saying there is nothing wrong with the weapon but that is bulls---. You come to the end of a tough obstacle course and look down to find that your weapon is no longer on safe." But an infantry officer with East Timor service said he could not recall any accidental discharge due to inadvertent release of the safety catch.

Copyright © 2000. The Sydney Morning Herald
 
I can understand keeping the rifles loaded, I would want mine loaded also. Let's assume a previous jolt released the safety. But why in hades would they have loaded rifles pointing toward the personnel? They should be carried with the barrel pointed to the side of the vehicle. The chance of hitting anyone in that truck or in the convoy would be nil and the chance of hitting a civilian to the side would be very very low.

There may be more to this than reached the press or even the Sgt. in the immediate vicinity.
 
So the Australian Military has great confidence in their Steyr rifles, the British Military has great conficence in their M-80 rifles that have to be duct taped to keep them from losing bits and pieces.

Perhaps they should consider looking at their SLR's (FAL's).

And if the troops were in convoy with loaded arms, why weren't they in the hads of the flaming troops? If they came under attack, how in hell were they to get their rifles to defend themselves.

Much more to the story than what has been reported. Can we all say fatal ND or murder?

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I myself would seriously question a policy of carrying rifles with a round in the chamber when the troops are in an area in which no one has been killed except now by the accidental discharge of their own weapons.
Its not that big of a deal to chamber a round if the situation seems to call for it.
 
I think I remember reading in SOF years ago that the Aussies were having lots of QC problems with their AUGs, which supposedly were built locally under license instead of being imported from Austria. Please don't ask me for a citation, since I don't think I could provide one. Does anyone else know about this?

Secnodly, anything is better than those Enfield M80s. I think I'd rather have a Chauchat. Sure, it blows up occasionally, but at least it doesn't need to be taped and glued together.

Finally, what the hell good does having your rifle loaded do you if it's in the back of a truck? Who was the Einstein that figured that it was acceptable in a hot zone that it require you ten seconds to get your rifle out of the back of your truck, but unacceptable that it take one more second to work the charging handle? If the whole point of a bullpup is that it be easier to transport in the cramped areas of trucks and APCs, then why weren't the soldiers carrying the things? Because it's dangerous?

The world is full of stupid people.
 
Whatever the M-16 faults may be, it's a HELL of a lot better than some of the military arms out there at the moment.

A similar procedure takes place at USPSA matches, before the gun is returned to the holster it is dry fired to be sure of a clear chamber.
 
Well, I wasn't referring to Cpl. Jones, I meant the bureaucrats who decided on this policy. Jones may well have been stupid, but this story gives no information one way or the other.
 
Well let's see, the nation won't trust it's civilians to keep a loaded rifle around, why should it trust a soldier to do so? After all, a soldier is just a civilian with a uniform on.
 
Some of the Australian Army's elte units, the SAS and the Commando batalion of the Royal Australian Regiment are using or being re-equiped with M16s.
 
May McMillan Jones rest in peace. If there is an equipment or procedure problem to blame, then I hope that it is fixed.

Who carries an Aug besides Austria, Ireland, and Australia?
 
Saudi Arabia, at least. Some US PDs have them. Supposedly, also at
least one Asian state, IIRC.

the AUG is not a bad rifle. It just has a slight problem with the
safety catch. It could be addressed as in the Vector Arms bullpup
rifle.
 
mussi,

The problem is in the Australian Aug. I own, no (I don't own any guns), I know someone that owns an Austrian Aug. That safety is fine. Haven't heard of problems with AUGs made in Austria.

All in all, a damn shame. Sounds like both poor manufacturing of the rifles in Australia, AND, silly mode of rifle storage in transit. Hell, if it is dangerous enough to justify a round chambered, don't ya think the rifle should be in your hands?

James
 
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