Gunsite 223 Lessons Learned

U

UnknownSailor

New member
Instructors:
Pat Rogers
Bill Dreeland
Willie Sampson

Equipment Brought:

Rifles (at class start):

Primary
  1. Bushmaster Dissipator A3 upper w/fluted barrel
  2. ARMS SIR #59m
  3. ARMS #40 BUIS
  4. ARMS #22M68 Aimpoint mount
  5. Aimpoint Comp ML2
  6. Dieter CQD vertical foregrip
  7. A2 fixed stock
  8. YHM single point sling mount
  9. Troy single point sling

Secondary
  1. Bushmaster XM-15 E2S (flat top)
  2. YHM 2 piece carbine length rail
  3. YHM rear BUIS
  4. LaRue EOTech mount
  5. EOTech 552 holosight
  6. A2 fixed stock
  7. YHM single pint sling mount
  8. Troy single point sling
  9. Tango Down foregrip (purchased from pro shop after rifle switch)

Equipment:
  • CQB solutions drop leg mag pouches (both 2 and 4 mag versions).
  • Surefire 962 throw lever weapon light.
  • LaBelle USGI 30 round magazines (16 ea.)
  • LaRue Aimpoint mount (empty and not mounted to anything at class start).
  • Dillon electronic ears (purchased at pro shop on day 1).

Ammo:
Winchester 3131A and PMC 55 grain mix.

223 Personal Lessons learned:
  • #59 SIR/dissy combination was no good – too heavy (NOTE: was functionally OK, just too heavy to hold up at Ready for more than 20 seconds). Switched to secondary rifle, used it for rest of class.
  • I stopped using my EOTech after only other one in class went down without explanation. Switched to Aimpoint from primary rifle in LaRue mount. My EOTech still functions, but not trustworthy.
  • LUBE YOUR RIFLE!
  • Aimpoint is combat accurate out to 300 meters. (4 MOA dot)
  • Fill trigger guard gap. Your strong side “social” (middle) finger will appreciate it.
  • SUNSCREEN – long pants/long sleeves are a good idea.
  • A lightweight rifle is good.
  • Electronic ears save time and aggravation while on line.
  • Check fasteners often. Use Locktite.
  • YHM rail accepted the Tango Down foregrip without issues. Was solid throughout class.
  • 2 mag leg pouch not enough “on person” ammo for class. Only used 4 mag pouch. Concept worked for me, though. 2 mag pouch should be good for non-school uses (think 3 gun matches).
  • Never used either BUIS, not even to confirm zeros.
  • The Troy sling was nice. To “unsling” from the rifle, all I had to do was unclip the sling. The pad helped during the times the rifle was hanging from the sling. My neck appreciated it.
  • I had no issues with the A2 length stock. Caveat: I am big, with long arms. Were I to wear body armor on a regular basis, I’m sure I would go with a shorter/collapsible stock.

Observed:
  • 2nd generation H&K Steel magazines had issues feeding in positions other than vertical.
  • BlackHawk 782 gear sucks. Eagle isn’t much better.
  • “Match” triggers are too fragile. (The sole class example lasted ONE SHOT!)
  • Red dot sight out on railed forend is not viable in every conceivable shooting position (think supine, urban prone), and adds weight out on the front of the rifle.
  • Had one ACOG Reflex sight user. Functionally was OK, but the dot was a hindrance on the long shots.
  • Bring 15 or more magazines, and have a small bag to carry them in. This saves stuffing magazines during the day, and the bag saves running back and forth to the car during the day for more ammo.
  • While 250 is not required, the experience of working with your pistol is a big plus. (Presentations, tac loads, etc.)
  • Lake City “big fireball” syndrome is confirmed (like it needed to be, but I’d never seen a ball of fire that big before, so I took note of it).
  • Solo house clearing with a pistol sucks, but it’s worse with a carbine.
  • Class used KAC RAS or RAS II/LaRue railed forends, with my YHM/SIR and one other one (Surefire?) the oddballs. One student used the stock handguards. Who also happened to win the shoot-off.
  • Pat Rogers is a great storyteller, and has a joke for every occasion (dare I say inexhaustible supply?). Oh, and an excellent instructor, to boot. :p

I had lots of fun (took "1st looser" in el presidente), shot lots of ammo, learned a lot, and got burned to a crisp. What more could a person ask for?
 
Dude, that was an excellent report. Might I ask why you choose Gun site over Thunder Rance , or the Oregon Firearms Academy?
Did you get a lot of good feed back about gun site?
Was anyone using an AK, or other assault style weapons?
thanks for the write up.
 
>> Dude, that was an excellent report

Yeah, except for forgetting the marksmanship details. It was a carbine *shooting* course afterall ;-)

So, what did y'all shoot?

What were the course drills/standards/exercises, etc?

You mention being "1st looser" [sic] on el presidente. I'll assume this was a 12 round drill fired on 3 Gunsite Option targets (an 18x30 silhouette with 6 inch shoulder cuts, 10 inch X-ring and 14 inch Y-ring), 4 rounds on each with probably a speed/emergency reload.

What distance did you shoot at?
Did you start slung, with back to the targets, or some other position?
Was it shot offhand, or freestyle?
What was the "par" score? A good score? Record score?

Any other drills shot?!?
 
I must have missed this thread the first time around.
It is a shame that it didn't get more responses, but I am afraid threads like this never get many responses.

I enjoyed 223 so much I actually thought about taking it again. I don't know if I will ever have the money to do so however.

There is a lot to learn there. One of the big things you learn is that a lot of the stuff you read on internet gun boards is Bravo Sierra.
 
huh?!?

>> One of the big things you learn is that a lot of the stuff you read on internet gun boards is Bravo Sierra.

444: This is true.

However, why do you consider asking for more details on drills and shooting exercises shot at a shooting course to be bovine excrement?
 
EOTech Sight

I took the Urban Rifle Course at Thunder Ranch. Used a Wilson UT-15 Urban Tactical rifle (.223), which performed perfectly. Also, I used an EOTech sight, with no problems at all. A gentleman firing next to me all week had a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special rifle (an excellent rifle, by the way), and had trouble with his sights for the first couple of days, and spent a lot of time at the "fiddle table" working with them. Obviously, my groups all week were much better, I was able to acquire my target faster, and liked the trigger pull better on my rifle thatn I did his. He shot my rifle one afternoon, and agreed. He also said he was getting an EOTech when he got back. I have back-up flip-up iron sights, which I used only when iron sights were required (early sighting in drills). For any course such as this, you can't have too many magazines (use good quality) and a LuLu loader. I may mention that I am a police officer in a large metropolitan area, a firearms instructor both at the police department and at the police academy. Can the EOTech sight suddenly fail to work, of course. As can a convential sight break, your radio can cease to function, and the computer in the squad car can go down. That's why redundant systems are in place. Hope that this is of help to anyone contemplating taking such a course.
 
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M4A3- yes, training is expensive. The question is, How much is your life worth?

Gunsite will generally run appx $1500 for a 223. You get great facilities and great instruction.
My classes there are generally overfilled many months in advance though.
I do some 3 day classes wearing my EAG Inc hat in IN, MI, FL and VA, but they are generally filled on the first day of posting (right now all are filled)

FYI- you realize that there is no such thing as an M4A3 in the real world- it is only BM marketing hype?
There is onlly the M4 Carbine (flat top and 3 round burst) and M4A1 Carbine (flat top and Full auto).
Regardless of nomenclature, seek out the best training that you can get.
I'll suggest Clint Smith, Randy Cain, Pat Goodale or Jeff Gonzalez.
 
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Darkangel:

I had been to gunsite before, for 250, and I like their particular "slant" WRT the philosophy of gunfighting. I have also taken DH1 at Thunder Ranch: Texas, and found the courses grossly similar, though TR had the student doing more "stuff" by day five than Gunsite. Barricade shooting and shooting while moving are the two big ones that stand out.

huntershooter:

Drills (from memory): box drill, snaps, malfunction, facing movements. I'm sure there were more, but ze memory, ze not so good.

Distances: 200 meters and in on the "square" type range drills. Scrambler varied from "close" to "far". So did the other one (Vlie?)

El Presidente: Started from Indoor Ready, back to targets. Turn, 2 shots on each of three targets, speed reload, two on each target again.
Record score was 6 seconds or so, par for the students was 14-15 seconds, IIRC. I averaged about 15-16, with a few misses.

About that BS comment: this was specifically commented on by Pat. He didn't mention any sites by name, but I got a good idea who his "primary suspects" were. *cough*ar15.com*cough*

M4A3: I spent roughly $3k for the whole deal. I drove down from Washington State (3 days down, 3 back up), so bear that in mind. I didn't try to clean out the Pro Shop, and I didn't need lots of gunsmithing.

YMMV.
 
"One student used the stock handguards"

That was I.

Perhaps my memory fails, but as I recall the El Presidente we did in this course was the modification known as the Demi Presidente:
Start at low ready facing targets, on signal two rounds COM each target, reload, 1 round head each target. Distance: 15 yards.

Unknown sailor: regards and best wishes
 
How was the drive back home? I took your suggestion, and went the highway 93 route. It took about 9 hours off my drive.

Stay safe, and I hope to see you again should I venture to Gunsite in the future...
 
I stopped using my EOTech after only other one in class went down without explanation. Switched to Aimpoint from primary rifle in LaRue mount. My EOTech still functions, but not trustworthy.
Click to expand...
Crazy, IMO. I know of no piece of equipment on the market/in current use that has had zero failures of any kind. If you take this approach you will not be able to use any equipment. Even iron sights can break...
 
Agreed, but normally you can tell what the mode of failure is, and know what needs fixing.

Red dot scopes either work, or they don't, and the EOthing seems to fail in much larger numbers than Aimpoint. I didn't want to take that chance, given that my paid for training time was on the line.

I still have the EOthing, and still use it. I just don't expect it to be as robust as the Aimpoint, based on the experience of those with far more trigger time than me. /looks over at Pat Rogers
 
I still think that's an over-the-top reaction.

Using that logic, anytime I hear that any equipment malfunctions without a known cause, I'd have to cross it off my list as no longer trustworthy.

If an item has a reputation for being unreliable that's one thing. Simply hearing of one that stopped working without a known cause is not evidence that it's unreliable.

Even the observation that brand A is less robust than brand B doesn't mean that one can label brand B as untrustworthy.

On second thought--cancel all that...

You're right, you need to ditch that EOtech. If you send it to me for free, I'll pay shipping as a show of good will.
 
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