Gun's fault or ammo?

A

adad

New member
I had my Steyr M9 worked on recently by GSI. They did a great job. Fix almost everything. (BTW: I asked to have my shipping costs refunded and the guy asked me if I'd rather have an extra mag! The magazines are expensive for the Steyrs, so I went with the extra mag. Great customer service!)

Anyway, I still have problems with one kind of ammo, 147 gr. Gold Dot JHPs. They do a few annoying things:

1. I get misfires a lot, about one every ten to twenty rounds.

2. The gun occasionally won't go into battery with this ammo (about once every 50 to 100 rounds)? This seems to be getting better though -- it didn't happen once the last time I went to the range.

3. I can barely eject this ammo from my gun manually. If I have a round in the chamber and try to eject it by pulling back on the slide (for instance, to eject a misfired round), I have to wrap my palm very tightly over the top of the slide, grab the grip serrations very tightly, and really pull hard on the slide to get the round to eject (being *very* careful the whole time to keep the gun pointed downrange, of course). The weird thing is that when firing this ammo I never have problems with the cases ejecting properly. They come out fine every time.

The interesting thing is that this only happens with the Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a few hundred rounds of FMJ from UMC and others (Winchester, I think) and they've all performed flawlessly.

I think two & three are caused by the same thing. I checked the UMC and Gold Dots with a caliper and the GD cases seem to be just a smidgen bigger ( a smidgen is 1/10th of a mite :) ). Since I didn't have really sensitive calipers I couldn't put a number on it, but there was a definite, very tiny, difference in size (diameter) between the two.

I think number one is the non-mercuric primers CCI uses on the GDs. I've heard these can cause more frequent misfires as they have to be struck harder. Is this correct?

So, in the end, I believe my gun just doesn't like the GD's! Which is very disappointing -- I really wanted to use those for my self-defense round. I read in another post around here somewhere that 9mm ammo varies a lot in the dimensions used by various manufacturers. And I think they made the Steyr's to some pretty tight tolerances, so maybe they just can't handle brass on the wider end of the 9mm spectrum.

Or am I just rationalizing? What do you think - is it the gun or the ammo?

Thanks for your help.

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Want to get some [Link to invalid post] to perform your own terminal ballistics tests with your favorite ammo?

[This message has been edited by adad (edited May 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by adad (edited May 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by adad (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
Yes...well ...now you know not to do Self Defence with that ammo!
Pernickerty things some handguns, I have some ISSF pistols that are similar to this but alao a USSR Russian Margolin that digests everything el cheapo .22RF manufacturers can throw at it and also gives excellent groups at 25m!!

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***Big Bunny***
 
Ammo (or the gun, if being too tightly machined is a fault). Sound like the ammo was made to different spec than your gun's chamber.

This is the reason why you're supposed to test various ammo and use what your gun likes.
 
Since you're shooting a 9mm, I can't help you on the measurement. I use .45 acp Gold Dots for self defense, and they work fine in my guns, and I could compare them with other loads with .001" calipers, but due to different calibers, it won't mean diddly to you. However, I truly believe that there are two things going on here:
1: Your chamber is machined a little tighter than most (combat) 9mm chambers, which typically increases accuracy a wee little bit but sacrifices reliability with "fringe spec" cartridges. this has been well documented with Kimbers (for example), and a search through the archives here will show that. Esteemed gunsmith Brian Bilby has a special package just to cure Kimbers with this malady.
2: The Speer Gold Dot in 9mm must be a "fringe cartridge." Speer could be using some pretty thick cases and the largest size spec bullet, and it will only feed in "combat throated" chambers. But then again, maybe not. According to the Speer reloading manual #12 (last year) the 147gr. Gold Dot should measure .355" thick. According to the Lyman manual Pistol & Relolver #2 (not updated yearly) the 9mm bullet was originally designed at .354" and bullets can be found over .356" but the standard size is .355" Maybe you could pull the bullets from a Gold Dot and one from something else and compare the bullets AND the case thickness (with calipers that will measure in thousandths!).

The bottom line is this: If you REALLY want to shoot Gold Dots, you'll probably have to have the chamber reamed and polished a few thousandths larger(you'll have to get a set of better calipers to determine this...and maybe a gunsmith's help). If it's not that big of a deal, find something else that will feed better. Look on the bright side, at least it feeds other brands fine, right?

Yes, thousandths really matter.

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Frontsight!
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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper
 
The 147gr bullets (well MOST of them) are really poor performers against soft targets. I would carry a 115gr or 124gr +P or +P+ round.
Robb

BTW the 147gr rounds didn't work very well in my old Glock 17 or 19. I believe this is the problem with your pistol. the 147gr doesn't move the slide fast enough to cycle it very well. 147gr rounds were originally intended to be used with suppressed weapons.
 
CCI primers are the hardest primers out there. I would try another brand of JHP. Federal Hydrashok or Remington +P+ or ProLoad, or Remington Golden Sabre, etc., etc. See if you can find one that your gun likes. If it doesn't like ANY of them, then yes it's probably the gun.

Jared
 
After having all those problems with one gun... I'd have a diffrent gun.

Tim

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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones. U.S. Marshals:::
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think number one is the non-mercuric primers CCI uses on the GDs. [/quote]

Just FYI: all commercially loaded small arms ammo (and, as far as I know, all NATO-spec military ammo) uses non-mercuric primers. Mercuric primers were used in the corrosive ammo loaded before about 1955.

CCI primers do have a reputation for being particularly hard to detonate.

Regarding your M9's problem with 147gr Gold Dots: my Glock 19 has the same problem (jamming out of battery) with PMC ball. It runs like a clock with just about everything else, but the PMC rounds are just a little too large in some dimension.
 
Please check my post on The Smithy-12 MAY00,(Sig 229-Failure To Feed).There are some very knowledgable people participating on TFL.

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"Until that time,Eustus,until that time."-from Soldier In The Rain
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adad:


Anyway, I still have problems with one kind of ammo, 147 gr. Gold Dot JHPs. They do a few annoying things:

3. I can barely eject this ammo from my gun manually. If I have a round in the chamber and try to eject it by pulling back on the slide (for instance, to eject a misfired round), I have to wrap my palm very tightly over the top of the slide, grab the grip serrations very tightly, and really pull hard on the slide to get the round to eject (being *very* careful the whole time to keep the gun pointed downrange, of course). The weird thing is that when firing this ammo I never have problems with the cases ejecting properly. They come out fine every time.

The interesting thing is that this only happens with the Gold Dot ammo. I've shot a few hundred rounds of FMJ from BMC and others (Winchester, I think) and they've all performed flawlessly.

I think two & three are caused by the same thing. I checked the BMC and Gold Dots with a caliper and the GD cases seem to be just a smidgen bigger ( a smidgen is 1/10th of a mite :) ). Since I didn't have really sensitive calipers I couldn't put a number on it, but there was a definite, very tiny, difference in size (diameter) between the two.

[/quote]
I have had the same problem with Gold dots in my Walther P99. My friend owns several walthers, and the problem shows up there too. Gold Dots jammed up his P99, and his P5. By that time , he knew better than to try them in his P38. They also gave him fits with his CZ-75. Needless to say, he does not use Gold dots any more. However, they work just fine in my Glock 26. He gave me his last box of GD's to shoot in it. They also work just fine in all of our Rugers!



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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
 
Speer has upgraded the ogive (curvature) of the 9mm 147 gr. Gold Dot bullet. New production ammo should not have the chambering problem you describe. Call their customer service number, or write a letter and UPS one of the defective cartridges back. My bet is that they'll send you a new box or two to try out.

Slim, out.
 
Oops! Obviously I meant UMC *not* BMC. I just updated my original post.

Thanks for the suggestion, Slim. I'll give them a call.

denfoote -
Thanks for the report! That makes me feel a lot better. We'll see how it does with other JHPs.

Thanks all!
 
Hi, Matt and guys,

Mercuric primers have not been used since the 1930's. Mercuric primers are non-corrosive but ruin the cases due to amalgamation of the mercury with the brass.

Corrosive primers have not been used in U.S. commercial ammo since before WWII. They were used in U.S. military ammo until the early 50s.

The problems described sound like sloppy tolerances on the part of the ammo maker. This is usually the result of an ammo manufacturer trying to get the absolute maximum life out of the case forming dies and letting them run over max spec. The chambers of a few guns could be tight, but when several guns are involved, the ammo is most likely at fault.

A continuing source of puzzlement to me is why people complain about a brand of ammo or gun, yet continue to use that brand and want to know how to fix it. The answer is simple; if it doesn't work, get something else.

Jim
 
Thanks, Jim. I'm certainly willing to try and use other ammo, but, as my topic says, I had questions about whether the gun was at fault or the ammo. Sure, it makes sense to try other ammo, and I will, but I thought it would be helpful to get some feedback from the experienced people here at TFL such as yourself before buying a bunch of different brands of ammo at random and just blasting away.

This is a new gun -- not only new to me but new to the market. If no one else had problems with this ammo, I'd probably send the gun back for more work. Although even in that case I'd still try other ammo first, of course.

I don't think anyone here is complaining about ammo that we're hell-bent on using regardless of other people's experiences or how well it works in our gun. Just looking for advice. As for complaining about guns, I don't see any good reason to just give up on a new gun that has some breaking in problems. I've only had my Steyr for a few months.

Besides, if none of us complained about our guns or ammo and just switched to something else all the time, what would we have to talk about on TFL? :)

I'm new to handguns so all the advice and info is much appreciated.
 
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