Guns and Bars, and Drinking while carrying

G

GLV

Moderator
Some states do not allow citizens to carry guns where alcoholic beverages are sold. Others have lessor restrictions. My home state has no restrictions.

I don't go into to bars at all, but do eat in places where alcohol is served. I do have one glass of wine with dinner. I do carry a gun where legal.

What is your experience in this area? what do you think the proper procedures are? GLV
 
In my home state you can not carry in "Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to the purpose." The intent of the law is pretty obvious. If you want to sit in the dining room and have a glass of wine with your meal or an after dinner drink, no problem. But you can't carry in the lounge or into a good old fashioned bar.

We have other restrictions as well. Concealed weapons permits don't allow carrying in law enforcement facilities, coutrooms (except the judge), any governmental meeting, any school kindergarten through higher education, places of worship, or any place prohibited by federal law.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited 01-23-99).]
 
Here in Virginia, we cannot carry in any place licensed to serve alcohol on the premises. This includes the food courts at the malls. Interesting problem in logistics, since I can carry anywhere else in the mall. Most of the local LEO's questioned by me say that as long as one is transiting the food court you are not in violation. However if you sit down and eat you would be in violation.

My personal position is that I will not drink when around firearms, much less while carrying. I view it the same as drinking and driving, a non-starter. My understanding is that in Virginia it is now illegal to have a firearm with you while drinking, whether concealed or a longgun, or in open carry.



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Freedom is not Free
 
I see nothing wrong with carrying in a restraunt that happens to serve alcohol. However when I am in one of these places, I do not drink. Guns and alcohol don't mix-period. I won't share a camp with anyone who brings alcohol, even if they only have a "social" drink in the evening.
Consider this- say your leaving a restraunt where you had one beer with your meal. In the parking lot you are confronted by an armed robber and a gunfight ensues. That one little beer is going to end up causing you more legal grief than you could imagine. Even if you're cleared of criminal charges, you'll probably lose your CCW permit and then there's the civil suit which is bound to follow.
I repeat- Guns and alcohol don't mix!
 
Great question/topic! When exactly was it that guns and bourbon were divorced? I'm 52 now and remember some of the great shooters of all time having a flask handy to steady the hand before the next match. Seems like only yesterday we were shooting clays with a cooler full of adult beverages near to hand. I've been to Izack Waltons that have a bar! When did the rules change?

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AFFA
 
The very great bullseye pistol shooter, Bill Blankenship wrote the following on this subject:

"I set a new national record in the centerfire aggregate (891) with a seven my first shot of the match. I went on to win twelve of the fourteen matches I fired in that year and broke the national three gun aggregate record... that was also my first year to win the National matches at Camp Perry.

I've included the information that I quit smoking, did not have a drink of alchohol or coffee for approximately eight months that year, and was very regular with my sleeping habits, to show you, first of all how serious I was in my training. Secondly, I'm sure all this helped me to gain better control physically and mentally, especially in the pinches, where a person normally feels the most pressure..."

From a competitive perspective -- if an idea is good enough for Bill Blankenship, it's certainly good enough by me.

As for "packing heat" in a bar... that's a situation begging for trouble. IMHO

Regards,

Kurt
 
Great Question GLV!

In my state, Michigan, one cannot be under the influence of alcohol and in possession of a firearm. Of course no one around here knows what "under the influence" means. Does that mean one drink, BAC=0.02? Or does it follow the drunk driving laws BAC=0.10?

It is okay to posess a firearm in a bar with the appropriate "general carry" permit, as long as you do not violate the above.

Personally, even though I can cary in any bar, if I go there with the intent to drink and carry on, I do not carry. Period. If however, I go there and intend to play air hockey and talk to my frineds, I do carry, but I do not drink.

I cannot recommend anyone carry a gun while intoxicated. Not only is there trouble if you get into a sticky situation, but you also give the anti's more reason to restrict carry. For example, "this man was killed because a drunk permit holder shot him!"

Patrick
 
I have to tell you it is very refreshing to read the responses to this thread - an excellent topic by the way. We legal conceal carry permit holders have a different standard to live up to on several levels. Like (or un-like) the president. First, legally, we must stay in the right. Now that means not only conducting ourselves in a manner "beyond reproach" so that if we are defending ourselves in a court of law for a justifiable shooting, no one can say we were in any way the antagonist (b/g). All it takes in the court is for one witness to use the simple generic phrase "He had been drinking", and it matters not whether you had had 1/2 a beer or 1/2 a case of beer - the alcohol taints your innocence. Secondly, we have a responsibility to the 2nd ammendment and the CCP laws. By that I mean the same "He had been drinking" phrase made by a news commentator ALWAYS harms the cause of concealed carry permits. Every person you may ever have the remotest opportunity to persuade to be in favor of CCP laws is swayed the otherway when they hear how "legal" carry is involved in "alcohol-related" firearms misuse. Every little story on the news chips away at the public advocacy for CCP. If we drink while carrying - even if we do everything just right - we can be maligned as legally carrying under the influence. I grew up in a house where - like many of you have said - a beer in the evening as you shot doves by the water tank, or drove back to camp from your deer stand was just a part of the tradition. Well, we have to wake up and realize the society that condoned that has now placed a far greater burden on us to be representatives for the "privilege" to carry concealed. We no longer can afford to mess that up. And lastly (and I'm sure you're glad I'm almost finished)- when you drink a beer, you are more likely to make decisions you wouldn't make otherwise. I'm not talking about the obvious major faux pas of asking the bartenders wife to go home with you. I'm talking about very subtle, "micro-choices" that happen several times every 30 seconds. Those little, subtle choices are the ones that can allow a normally very safe shooter to shoot at a b/g with others standing behind. To use a subtle word or phrase in a pre-shootout dialogue with the b/g which will be used against us in court. Alcohol does make a difference - even the smallest amounts.
OK...OK...I'm done. Now, somebody throw some water on me. I gotta calm down.
 
Shooting1911: What you said also pertains to us non carry individuals as well. By that I mean, in the home. If you have a gun in the house for protection, before the party starts, you may consider locking it away along with the car keys. It's a tough choice to make. Do I leave myself open for a night because I am going to have a few and trust in the laws of average that tonight won't be the night I may need a gun? When and where does the line get drawn as far as how many is enough to deem locking the guns away? Good topic. Makes for a lot of thinking.
 
There are some interesting thoughts in this thread. Some of us would seem to prefer to live a risk free existance by eliminating all the undesirable possibilities and sequellae to same. Others of us are willing to accept life as it is and understand that a giant plan is not possible and we have to cope as we can. I, for one, am more of the second school and have made it for 68 years, so far. I carry 100% of the time. I eat dinner and occaisionally have a drink with my dinner. If I should be confronted in a parking lot after having had a drink, I will deal with the situation as it arises. If I should be charged or sued for having done so, so be it, I will deal with it or them. I will not be intimidated from doing what I think is right, that is how we lose our rights. Sorry this post is so long, but sometimes I think (not feel) I must speak. - Doc
 
Shooting1911,
I could not agree more. To carry is a right, but to drink while doing so castes an unfavorable light on any confrontation that you are involved in.

Kurt,

Bill Blankenship is probably the greatest pistol shot of all time! Certainly the absolute best bullseye shooter. His advice is right on!

To all,
Generally I avoid talking about alcohol, for I am an alcoholic, sober now for about 15 years. One of the most obnoxious proselytizers known to man is a reformed alcoholic. In order to avoid that I just don't talk about alcohol much.

Recently I did comment on this question in another forum (Glocktalk?).

It is my considered opinion that if one is carrying in public one should not drink. Not at all, none. For the reasons that have been adequately covered in other posts here. (I especially recommend rereading Shooting1911's post, but the are so many good posts that all should be read carefully.)

When on is in his own house, and has a drink and then subsequently has to deal with an intruder the case could be made that the intruder had chosen the course.

Thus in my opinion is would be BEST if while away from one's residence and carrying one SHOULD abstain from all alcohol (and of course any other inhibition lowering agent).

At home, one should probably recognize that drinking more than a couple of drinks is probably not the BEST course of action.

In the final analysis each of us has to make choices we will have to live with. In the the other forum someone quoted an Eastwood character in a movie, "A man has to know his limitations." Indeed!

Note that for those of you for whom responsible consumption of alcohol is possible I do not propose that you eschew all alcohol, just that you follow the "Guns and Alcohol dont mix" motto when carrying in public.

respectfully

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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael



[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited 01-24-99).]
 
Doc, Michael, and all who thus far have responded, I think anyone reading the responses would get good information.

Doc, your response most mirrors my own thinking. My 6 oz of red wine each day is for health reasons, helps keep the cholesterol down, 6 bypasses about 10 years ago.

Twice, in the last 10 years, in the evening, I have had reason to draw a gun ( not show it ), and in my personal critiques, I did not feel my 6oz of wine, taken with dinner, had any effect on my reaction.

Met Bill B. in about 65-66? At a pre Perry match in Elkhart, Indiana. I had a young team from Bunker Hill AFB, and was trying to teach them to eat right, slow down on the coffee, smokes, and booze. George
 
An excellent thread on an important topic!

Michael, your distinction between possession at one's residence and carrying a weapon abroad is a good one. Abstinence, while carrying is simple common sense and I agree you completely. Your personal experience reinforces the seriousness of the subject and offers insight. My sincerest congratulations on 15 years!!

Doc, right or wrong, in terms of public perception, I suspect there is a difference between:

a.) dining at a local bistro and enjoying a Chardonnay while your Walther rests comfortably under a sports jacket and

b.) Stopping off for a few pitchers at a gin mill while carrying the hi-cap wonder pistol, extra mags, and a tactical folder clipped in the front pocket.

I certainly share your penchant for individual liberty; but I don't see where choosing to lock a gun in the trunk before stopping off for a libation violates the cosmic order. While I have no strong feelings on the subject; I do think caution and consistency in these situations makes sense.

Shooting1911, Well done! I would wish that all shooters really HEAR and HEED your message!!

Here's what I heard. I will hope to live up to your good advice!

1.) We have a responsibility to "stay in the right" and maintain personal conduct that is above reproach.

2.) We have a responsibility to protect our constitutional rights, by virtue of our conduct, both for ourselves and for future generations.

Our self discipline and our personal conduct is critical to protecting those rights. We should all think very hard about this point! It is especially important today and will likely be more important in the future. Annually, fewer than 15,000 people are killed accidentally by gunfire; but in our "information age" a single unfortunate incident is transmitted world-wide instantaneously. A single lapse, by any one of us - affects all of us, and all who come after us!

3.) Alcohol, like any substance, affects our chemistry and potentially our judgement. We should be ever mindful that poor "micro-choices" have the potential to set up a disasterous chain of events.

Thanks to all for an excellent thread!

Good Shooting,

Kurt
 
Kurt - 15,000 killed annually by accidental gunfire? Sounds a bit high... My recollection is closer to 1,600 by FBI stats.
 
Kurt,

Your post was excellent, but perhaps there is one too many zeros on the 15,000 figure?

Morgan, I think has a figure that is closer, but does anyone have the real actual number? Even 1,600 seems a little high. When we get the number perhaps we could know what is included in it?

This is/was a really good thread.

Oh, BTW, for those of you who are loathe to give up your glass of wine with dinner...I understand that is the only thing I miss about drinking, the beer with the burger and the wine with the meal!

Stay safe!

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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael
 
sorry to be joining late. I was hoping that this converstaion would drift over here.
For those who aren't familar here is my .02:

I do not have a strict zero tolerance policy. I cannot speak for others, but I can tell you that from my observation, not many people do. At least not the type of people who carry everday anyway, LEO or not.

If am planning on being too drunk to drive, I won't carry. That is my standard. I can't remember the last time I was in that situation, but during college, etc.. that was occasionally the situation, so I would not carry.

I will say that I have only very very very rarely seen an LEO who would drink when either A. on duty or b. going to go on duty within 12 hours.(most of those who I have seen take a sip have been old schoolers who cameup in a different era of LE)
I have occassionaly known CID officers to come into work after having
had a beer or two while watching a football game or something and been called out, but they are investigators. I don't believe that any of the SRT/SWAT team members I know would ever jeopardize themselvesor their team by answering a call out in that situation, even after a sip.

That was as open and honest as I think I could be. It is a very good question, one that deserves serious thought and, IMHO, has no right or wrong answer.

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-Essayons
 
I don't have much choice in the matter. In my state(GA), the permit states on the back that I may not carry in any establishment which serves alcohol for consumption on the premises, period. I think that may be a tad too strict, I don't think having a beer with my pizza would make me irresponsible, but OTOH, I would rather they err on the side of caution. As someone on here has said, the antis are just waiting for some CCW to screw up and kill an innocent person.
 
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