There is currently another thread on this subject with a lot of good information. However with all of the enlightenment from it, there is no good indicator of how the numbers stack up. I hope it is ok then to run this poll as I would like to know which side of the fence the majority sits on.
Guns a collective or individual right? Poll.
- Thread starter Bravo25
- Start date
Hugh Damright
New member
Sorry, that's like asking me if I believe in chickens or eggs. I believe in both. I believe it is a political right, a principle of free government, that a people have a collective rkba to defend their free government. And I also believe in the civil right, the individual rkba, such as in self-defense against burglars.
To me, the question would have to be whether the Second Amendment was intended to declare an individual/civil right, such as the right to shoot burglars, or a collective/political right, such as the right to alter or to abolish government.
To me, the question would have to be whether the Second Amendment was intended to declare an individual/civil right, such as the right to shoot burglars, or a collective/political right, such as the right to alter or to abolish government.
Wildalaska
Moderator
For what its worth, an individual right
WildbutthatonlystartstheanalysisAlaska
WildbutthatonlystartstheanalysisAlaska
I agree wtih Antipitas.
As I understand the real meaning of the 2nd amendment, a well regulated (meaning, well trained and capable) militia (meaning, all citizens able to bear arms) is essential to the establishment and defense of a free society. The only way to have a well trained, capable body of all arms capable citizens is for the citizens to be able to possess their own arms and provide for their own training. The necessary implication of this is that it is the individual's right to keep and bear arms, and that right is vital to the existence of the collective ability of a free society to establish and defend itself. This collective ability of the free citizens of a society to establish and defend their free society with their own means on their own initiative stands alongside of the right of that society to maintain a regular military/constabulatory, and stands as a counterbalance to that military/constabulatory, preventing a free state from digressing into a police state by the corruption of the state officials who command that military/constabulatory.
As I understand the real meaning of the 2nd amendment, a well regulated (meaning, well trained and capable) militia (meaning, all citizens able to bear arms) is essential to the establishment and defense of a free society. The only way to have a well trained, capable body of all arms capable citizens is for the citizens to be able to possess their own arms and provide for their own training. The necessary implication of this is that it is the individual's right to keep and bear arms, and that right is vital to the existence of the collective ability of a free society to establish and defend itself. This collective ability of the free citizens of a society to establish and defend their free society with their own means on their own initiative stands alongside of the right of that society to maintain a regular military/constabulatory, and stands as a counterbalance to that military/constabulatory, preventing a free state from digressing into a police state by the corruption of the state officials who command that military/constabulatory.
Individual right
I believe it is an individual right BUT
I also believe that it is a collective responsibility to keep those rights as our for fathers origionaly wrote them.
Far to many people are willing to give up our collective rights to make there little world a little safer, wether its real or made up in there shallow little minds.
"Get rid of guns" I keep hearing these hollywood trash yelling or the liberal trash in Washington pounding the table.
They can do so much for us if they can only get rid of guns.
What are these trash smoking?
Do you even emagin that Kennedy has ever paid for a gallon of gas, other than the time he killed that woman, so many years ago.
Do you think that Hillary has ever been in a aria of the country that you need to carry a gun.
Do you think that Hanoy Jane has ever worked one day in her life where she wasnt pampered.
Yet so many people listen to these and believe what they say.
Its only the document that our forfathers wrote so many years ago that stop these cranks.
That and Supream Judges like the one that was sworn in.
Thank you President Bush.
I believe it is an individual right BUT
I also believe that it is a collective responsibility to keep those rights as our for fathers origionaly wrote them.
Far to many people are willing to give up our collective rights to make there little world a little safer, wether its real or made up in there shallow little minds.
"Get rid of guns" I keep hearing these hollywood trash yelling or the liberal trash in Washington pounding the table.
They can do so much for us if they can only get rid of guns.
What are these trash smoking?
Do you even emagin that Kennedy has ever paid for a gallon of gas, other than the time he killed that woman, so many years ago.
Do you think that Hillary has ever been in a aria of the country that you need to carry a gun.
Do you think that Hanoy Jane has ever worked one day in her life where she wasnt pampered.
Yet so many people listen to these and believe what they say.
Its only the document that our forfathers wrote so many years ago that stop these cranks.
That and Supream Judges like the one that was sworn in.
Thank you President Bush.
mooreshawnm
New member
All that discussion on the other thread and the vote is 25-0 in favor of individual! I LOVE IT! Would have expected this total 6 months ago but lately...
Shawn
Shawn
Maybe this cold is kicking my butt, but,
:To me, the question would have to be whether the Second Amendment was intended to declare an individual/civil right, such as the right to shoot burglars (Yes)
, or a collective/political right, such as the right to alter or to abolish government. (Yes)
or you can look at it this way:
Or looters as in the case of a group of people getting together, to do just this.
Or:
An individual can be the first to start the movement, and then hopefully it will become a collective as others join the movement.
Wayne
Hugh Damright
New member
OK fine, I voted "collective" since everyone is out to prove a point.
y'all should have polled me ten or twenty years ago ... my boyhood view was that the Second Amendment is all about individual rights!
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Allright I voted collective, because initially I thought, as is thought by many, that the right to bear arms is afforded to the militia. That is correct, where people are incorrect is thinking that the militia means everyone.
In 1792, congress passed the Militia Act. This act defined a militia as all able-bodied white males, and it required that members of this militia own arms. This may seem a little dated, so I went in search of a more recent definition of a militia, and I found the following: According to the United States Code, “The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and…under 45 years of age.”
BUT!
The second amendment clearly states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Hence, it is the collective right and indeed DUTY of all able bodied males aged 17-45 to keep and bear arms.
The federal government is to:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
According to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution
BUT! AGAIN!
It is ALSO the individual right of the people (and in the Constitution people is different than persons (citizens), people are everyone, slaves, blacks, women etc.) to keep and bear arms.
In conclusion, the second amendment guarantees arms ownership and the right to bear them to every single person in the United States. It provides specific collective and general individual rights to own and bear arms.
http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-notes.html
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html
In 1792, congress passed the Militia Act. This act defined a militia as all able-bodied white males, and it required that members of this militia own arms. This may seem a little dated, so I went in search of a more recent definition of a militia, and I found the following: According to the United States Code, “The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and…under 45 years of age.”
BUT!
The second amendment clearly states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Hence, it is the collective right and indeed DUTY of all able bodied males aged 17-45 to keep and bear arms.
The federal government is to:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
According to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution
BUT! AGAIN!
It is ALSO the individual right of the people (and in the Constitution people is different than persons (citizens), people are everyone, slaves, blacks, women etc.) to keep and bear arms.
In conclusion, the second amendment guarantees arms ownership and the right to bear them to every single person in the United States. It provides specific collective and general individual rights to own and bear arms.
http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-notes.html
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html