Gun violence in America

S

Sierra280

Moderator
I don't want to start a raging debate but this is just something I've been thinking about and needed to ask.

I've been wondering why we (the US) have more gun violence than other countries (more specifically, active shooter situations ending in suicide) now by any individual measure of the possible cause, there are worse countries (ie, it's because we have the most guns--Actually Canada has more per capita; it's because of all the broken homes--the UK has more, etc). The only thing I keep thinking is that it's because of our basic ideals as Americans, ideals that are even contrary to most religious beliefs. Specifically, that there are many things more important than life itself; freedom, liberty, quality of life, etc. It wasn't professional soldiers that won our independence, it was men with their hunting rifles, willing to die for principle. Even though Judeo-Christian religions teach that life is precious above all else (slave beliefs) it is ingrained in our national ethos that in fact life is not precious above all. So as poverty increases, as does the gap between classes, those who are destitute or feel they no hope of a better life see the mass shooting/suicide as the only reasonable option, as it is generally in fitting with their core beliefs and those of our nation.


This of course is not counting those who do such things due to mental illness (Charles Whitman, etc) but actually caring for all our citizens health problems is an entirely different discussion.
 
Deaths by shootings would be the stat everyone seems to use, though I was thinking more specifically about active shooter mass shooting ending in suicide .
 
Why do the Eskimos have more ice violence? :rolleyes: (And the Aussies probably have more kangaroo violence.)

The real question is, why is it that "gun violence" is the only kind that matters? And are the numbers normalized for population? America is a big place. A lot more people than England, for example. (and less than India or China, I think)
 
I don't think there are really all that many mass shooting/suicides. There are too many, but the news media and the politicians play up Every. Single. Event. with endless 24/7 coverage. Makes the bad guy out to be a legend among all the other crazy people and inspires them to do likewise. <adjusting tinfoil hat> I think partially that might be intentional. Tragedies are good for ratings, and dead bodies make props for speeches.
 
The term 'gun violence' is self-depreciating when used pro gun rights folks. The problem is violence....period. Or, substitute crime. By using the term gun violence, or gun crime we're just playing into the hands of the anti's.

If guns were somehow magically dis-invented, crime and violence would still exist, just the tools would be different. So far, no gun control laws have done much, if anything, to reduce crime (or violence).

Back to the question of the thread....If the premise of the thread is true, that we have more [ ]violence, I would proffer that it's due to a breakdown in social order and morals.
 
My question is more rhetorical than anything else and you've pointed out why:
Sierra280:
Deaths by shootings would be the stat everyone seems to use
Click to expand...
Police shooting criminals? Gun violence
Home defense shooting? gun violence
Suicide? gun violence
criminals shooting criminals? gun violence
Lump enough stuff together and it becomes meaningless b/c the number of root causes increase and become contradictory.

Ergo: it's a crap term why you want to have a meaningful discussion of behavior and violence.

To be honest, I cannot really follow your arguments about possible causes religious/non-religious, political, socio-economical to respond about a general, unifying theory of both gun/non-gun violence. Probably this is because trying to find motive in violent behavior brings up age-old questions of determinism or free will.

If I were going to discuss gun deaths related to you interest,
specifically about active shooter mass shooting ending in suicide
Click to expand...
, I would say you could possibly include the deaths of active shooters (not their victims) with those who commit suicide (whether by gun or not). I'm sure that there are psychological studies of the causes of suicide that could be studied. Additionally, there are philosophical treatises dedicated to this topic as well,see Kierkegaard. Thusfar, no great unifying theory here either. Want to know why some violent people use guns and others use other tools? That's a whole 'nuther topic.

Still, we can all agree that violence is always a bad result to a social situation. Want to talk about the maddening persistence of bad behavior between humans? Now you're down to the question of evil. If you're a modern, enlightened person who doesn't believe that evil exists, you're adrift to draw your own conclusions about causes and motives.

Re-doing all of the thinking done by western civilization since Socrates and the Hebrews can be a bit tiresome. It's usually easiest to avoid the heavy thinking by taking the vagaries of human behavior and choice out of the equation and just blame the tool and lump all deaths by gun under the term "gun violence."

I hate the term; I hate the poor thinking about it.

Note: this rant is not aimed at you, Sierra280. I just happened to take exceptional umbrage to the term "gun violence" as a lead-in to a discussion of human behavior. It demeans both people and societies.
 
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I agree with the above by 2ndsojourn in that we have a violence problem in this country. For whatever reason, the youth in this country just seems much more violent in general compared to previous generations. I'm just under 30 years old and don't remember kids being as violent as they are now.

For one example, I would use "The Knockout Game" where groups of (generally teenagers) are hitting folks at random, in the back of the head in order to knock them out. There are videos of this all over youtube.

I must however site a reference to the 'school shootings' in the United States and across the world. It doesn't just happen here. Please bear with me, I know its the wiki, but the basic info is there. It shows that school shootings happen in countries where you can't (reasonably) own a firearm...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
 
Size(population), crime stats....

When many anti-gun supporters, media sources & academics bring up other nations, re; gun crimes/violent crime, I say bear in mind the true or real size of the country. ;)
Canada, for example only has approx 40 million residents total. That's it. They are also spread out into vast parcels of land. There are urban areas & cities but it's not a fair or realistic comparison to a country like the USA which has 310mil residents(2014 #s which might be higher with undocumented illegals).
Can you fairly compare a nation like New Zealand or Spain or Viet Nam to the USA? No.
:mad:
Another recent article I read online showed how the "gun accidents" & "children" shot/killed with US firearms(gun incidents) is really teens; 17-19 years old. :rolleyes:
Many of the ER stats & urban area gun crimes are what US law enforcement calls: "red on red". Gang members shooting other documented gang members or drug related crime that turns violent.
The anti-gun crowd doesn't tell the true story behind these records.


Clyde
 
More gun violence than whom?

Germany during the reign of Hitler?
Russia during the reign of Stalin?
China as murders were ordered by Mao Zedong?
Cambodia under Pol Pot?
North Korea under Kim Il Sung?
Cuba under the rule of Fidel Castro?
Turkey when ruled by Ismail Enver?
Or, Syria under the dictatorship of Assad?

What do you think is going to happen to those pro-west Ukrainian protesters who want to be free of Putin's Russia right after the Olympic closing ceremonies? Do you think Ukrainians are allowed to have guns? Watch how they "disappear" into the quiet of the night as all of Europe and America turn their backs and close their eyes. How many years do you think boxing champion Vitali Klitschko has left on this earth as a free man?

Compared to these and many, many other countries that prohibit their citizens from being armed, what you call "gun violence" in America is statistically non-existent. It's a made-up term spun by those who would naively back the next would-be murderous dictator.
 
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Gun violence? Guns are not the problem. Violence is the problem. Violence is due to lack of morality and respect for others and self. Basically that is it in a nutshell.
 
I don't think it fair to the U.S. to have this discussion and not include Mexico (drug related violence), Columbia (again drugs) and more than a few middle eastern countries who I won't even try to name.

My point is that there are other countries that are far more violent than the we are yet I rarely hear reference to them when gun owners in the U.S. are being maligned in the news.
 
Perception

What makes you say we have more? Mexico has way more gun violence than we do, and China has school 'stabbings' since guns are so controlled. Our media reports more of our stuff and less about elsewhere.

I make it a point to read papers while I travel (multi-lingual, I am an international buyer). There isn't really more violence here than some other places. Sure, it's more guns than just about anyone other than Mexico, but we have more guns than most other places, so our violence is there. I saw more street violence in Paris, than NY City, but it was face to face rather than a gun.

Only one place ever really scared me. San Salvador.
 
Poor people & crime....

I just re-read the first topic post.
Poor people do not cause gun crime. :mad:
In the USA, there are 1000s of "poor" & fixed/low income citizens.
Do they run down the streets or roads shooting at people all day?
No.
If anything, poor & low income residents are victims of gun crimes.

In 2011/2012, I worked in a "low end" hotel near a urban area doing security & other jobs. The local PD officers in the sector had the same - attitude.
:mad:
Maybe, just maybe, if you talked to some of these "poor people" or got to know what really goes on, you'll see what the root causes of crime are.
 
Good Link BarryLee

That's a good bit of information. I do find it interesting that as 'gun violence' goes down through 2011, media coverage has amplified it more and more. The media is giving the country the impression that this type of violence is running rampant...
 
Honestly though

I think what Sierra280 might be looking for though, is the different American attitude. Americans in general, especially youngsters, are viewed as having a feeling of 'entitlement'. They are owed something from society in their minds. Rich or poor (affluenza come to mind?) doesn't matter, race doesn't matter, citizenship doesn't matter. Because this is America (USA), the land of opportunity, the riches are yours to have. I lived in Florida during Obama's 1st election. It was crazy how many younger kids (mostly immigrants) were convinced Obama was going to buy everyone cars, abolish taxes, give food stamps to everyone. These perceptions were re-enforced by their parents in some part. I could see that they had the perception that somehow, because they were in America, society as a whole owed them something. This is a perception, that once it fails, tends to anger a person. Where is my dream of riches? Where are the opportunities?

People aren't getting the respect they think they deserve, as perpetuated by the people around them. Lots of rich/poor kids have this perception that they are owed something. Their peers that succeed, through some sort of violence (at least in the short term), show them the way. Personal failure simply doesn't exist, when you find failure, it must be society in some way that has failed you. So, they strike out... at society.
 
At the beginning of the OP, we are asked to discuss active shooters ending in suicide. At the end of the OP, we are asked to exclude those with mental illness. That leaves little or nothing to talk about. I don't recall socioeconomic conditions being a major factor in any of the active shooters of recent years. What I remember were broken people, many with diagnosed and untreated mental illness. The reluctance to provide resources for the mentally ill carries a cost of its own.
 
^^thank you, Marty I guess that is kind of what I was looking for. Didn't mean to make it about symantics or try to make comparisons to third world, revolutionary countries in social disorder or (more distastefully) even say the US isn't that bad compared to murderous totalitarian regimes.
 
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