gun show loophole/ trap?

wayneinFL

New member
http://www.csgv.org/news/headlines/timesnewher5_18_05.cfm

"These were private gun owners who were making what would normally be a legitimate transaction, the sale of a legal firearm between two people," said Sgt. David Scott, of the state police barracks in the Town of Wallkill. "But when you enter into a gun show and make the deal there, unfortunately you're bound by a different law."

This article refers to a federal law requiring background checks for all firearms transactions at gun shows. HUH? So no private party sales at gun shows without a background check? And how does a private party do a background check on a buyer?
 
My understanding was that only FFL dealers were required to make them at gun shows. Do you suppose both of them had FFLs and that wasn't mentioned in the story? Otherwise, I have no idea what the officer was referencing.
 
Well, that last post of mine was stupid, since they were referred to as private gun owners. I have no idea!
 
Anything from the CSGV websight is probably half hype and half balony, with a little bit of malicious lie thrown in for goodmeasure. No telling what is the kernal of truth if any. :rolleyes:
 
Like ticket scalping

Many venues do not allow the transactions of tickets on the venue grounds for a wide variety of events. I remember hearing on many different occasions about regular joes trying to unload or buy tickets and getting caught up in the snare. It seems that, if the article is, at least majority, true, then the non-FFL's need to watch themselves at this venue if they are engaging in transactions. They could make the deals elsewhere out of the watchful eyes of Big Brother. The officer in the article was quoted as saying that the transactions would otherwise be legitimate, so it seems it would be wise stay away from the venue when the transaction is going down. I am sure that a little bit of "modesty" when conducting firearms transactions can help keep it legal as we know it, as well.
 
IIRC, the law isn't a federal one but a state law. So there has been some misinformation (duh, you think on an anti site :rolleyes: ):

without conducting background checks on the buyers, a violation of federal law.

NOW, states like NY and Oregon have "closed" the so called gun show loophole. In Oregon, if more then 23 guns are present and more than two people are present, you are considered a "gun show".

Take me for example. Let's say that I have a friend over, I have a ad in the paper that I am selling a gun. Person that is interested comes over, BOOMYA baby, I just committed a state felony if I sell that gun. I covered all the bases for the state to deem me a "gun show".

Now, if I am in the parking lot, across the street, etc.. and by myself, It is deemed a private transaction.

Now you see folks why 1) you have to be up on your state laws, and 2) you can't believe every word you read since this IS NOT a federal crime, it's a state crime.

Wayne
 
But state police say the event – the Middletown Great Gun and Knife Show – has become an open market for unscrupulous sellers who hawk weapons in the parking lot without conducting background checks on the buyers, a violation of federal law.

Over the weekend, two men were arrested by state police in separate incidents after they attempted to sell weapons to patrons of the gun show, police said. The deals were made inside the gun show, but the sales were made across the street in the parking lot.

OMG! :eek: "Attempting to sell weapons to patrons of the GUN SHOW!"


The men weren't registered vendors in the gun show, state police said.
Daniel Solomon, 40, of Glen Cove, was arrested and charged with the sale of a firearm at a gun show, a misdemeanor. He was given an appearance ticket for Town of Wallkill Court.

"CHARGED with "the sale of a firearm at a gun show, a misdemeanor."

How freakishly bizarre is THAT?!

Now, I don't know what the law is in NY -- whether they have mandated background checks between private sellers -- but I do know that the federal law requires only background checks if the seller is a FFL! If this guy was a FFL then he broke the federal law. If he is not, then he didn't break the federal law, but he may have broken some idiotic state law. When the police themselves admit that the transaction would normally be perfectly okay except for the fact that it occurred at the location of a gun show, we have a real problem with the wrong-headedness of this moronic law.


State police said a security guard at the fairgrounds overheard Solomon talking with a man about selling a .45-caliber semiautomatic rifle for $400 in the parking lot.


I don't know every type of gun out there, and I know that many lever-action rifles are chambered in handgun calibers, and I know that various high-end subguns are available in 9mm, .40, and perhaps .45, but I'm having trouble thinking of a semi-auto .45 rifle -- particularly one that would sell for only $400. Is this that weird Kel-Tec thingie?


When a state trooper rolled up on the two men making the deal, the vendor allegedly shoved the gun under a tarp on the back of his pickup truck and then crumpled up a handwritten receipt for the sale of the gun, tossing it away.

It's pretty sick that the "security" at the gun show is acting as "narcs" against sellers. I'm sure their excuse is that if they didn't try to do law enforcement's job, and find people selling against the rules, they would bear legal responsibility for the illegal sale. B.S. Since when is it the gun show management's responsibility to enforce the law as though they were police officers?

-blackmind
 
I don't know every type of gun out there, and I know that many lever-action rifles are chambered in handgun calibers, and I know that various high-end subguns are available in 9mm, .40, and perhaps .45, but I'm having trouble thinking of a semi-auto .45 rifle -- particularly one that would sell for only $400. Is this that weird Kel-Tec thingie?

It sounds like a .45 carbine. My neighbor has one, takes the same magazine as the M1911. *shrug* Nothing too out of the ordinary or top-end.
 
I didn't RTFA, but i would like to think that the spirit of the law is to kee someone from renting a booth sell (as the cardboard sign usually says)

"All Firearms on this table are from my private collection. No background check needed"

Same thing for the guy who has a trunk full of firearms. Brings 2 or three into the show and replenishes his "inventory" when he sells them.

To me thats the problem - NOT the guy who wants to sell one gun.
 
I'm having trouble thinking of a semi-auto .45 rifle
Didn't the Red chinese used to make a SA Thompson knockoff that could be had for about $400?

"Gun show loophole"; this is proof that marketing works. Twenty years ago if you used this or any one of the other 500 weasel-words the antis invented people would look at you like you had another arm growing out your forehead. Now 90% seem to have accepted them. So let me clarify.

THERE AINT NO SUCH THING AS A GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE!!!

I didn't RTFA, but i would like to think that the spirit of the law is to kee someone from renting a booth sell ...
So how is a citizen who does a legal, moral and honorable action with his own private property a problem? I suppose you have trouble with little old men who sell turnip greens from their pickup trucks on the side of country roads too?
 
Meekandmild,

It the "there ain't no gun show loophole" was directed to me. Please read what I wrote and how I wrote it:

NOW, states like NY and Oregon have "closed" the so called gun show loophole.

I was saying the exact thing that you have :).

Wayne
 
didn't RTFA, but i would like to think that the spirit of the law is to kee someone from renting a booth sell (as the cardboard sign usually says) "All Firearms on this table are from my private collection. No background check needed" Same thing for the guy who has a trunk full of firearms. Brings 2 or three into the show and replenishes his "inventory" when he sells them. To me thats the problem - NOT the guy who wants to sell one gun.
The way I understand the law though that wouldn't be a loophole as much as just plain illegal.

To me the seller would be operating illegally in those cases. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_s...itle=18&sec=922

"a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce"

If someone sold a large quantity of guns at gun shows for a length of time they could try to claim they weren't in the business of dealing firearms, but I think you'd run a fair chance of getting nailed to the wall if you were prosecuted.

The ATF does seem to have no problem with individual sales http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b17 and lists no limit on the number, which actually seems reasonable. If you turn over 200 a month could you prove they were all yours before or inherited them or something. If not it sounds like felony X 200 because you're dealing guns without a license.
 
In Colorado we also cannot sell a firearm without a background check in any venue where more than 25 guns are for sale (no more estate auctions, etc.).

Now when you go to the gun show to buy from a private party you have to go to one of the FFL booths and pay about $15 for them to do a background check (which is great for them, as they don't pay anything for the check).

PITA, and adds $15 to every gun sale, but not the end of the world.
 
Maybe this will help. In NYS when purchasing a hand gun, you must be licensed permit holder and you are not allowed to take possession of the handgun from the private seller or FFL dealer until it has been transfered over to you permit. So purchasing a hand gun that is not already registered with the state is illegal and the person selling the firearm is breaking the law by having an unregistered handgun. Handguns that are not registered in the state must go through a FFL dealer.
If and when I would purchase a handgun from a private person and went to the county pistol permit office to have it issued to my permit, the office would run an updated background check on me that would stay in my file and be good for 5 years. Our permits in our state are considered lifetime or until revoked.

kenny b
 
Kenny B,

What the heck is wrong with NYS?

I've been to upper NY, Rome to be exact. BEAUTIFUL (yet cold in the winter) country, nice people, sucky gun laws. I was thinking that it was because of NYC but more and more of upstate NY is turning Blue (and it's not due to the cold winters).

I would LOVE to go back to visit but I won't with the current gun laws, senator, and governor.

(sorry for the side, just enjoyed NYS but know that I can never go back if they keep up this stuff).

Wayne
 
They can have my turnips when the pry them from my hot boiling stewpot

I do see your point and understand you example but there is not a thriving criminal market for produce nor is the manufacture and distribution of produce as heavily regulated as the firearms industry.

Believe me Im am one of the "good guys" here and as much as I hate big government telling me what I can buy and from whom, and how much and where - I realize that there are laws in place that make it Illeagle to run a "firearms business" without a licsense. I, personally, will abide by those laws - EVEN THOUGH I DON"T LIKE THEM. But what I will do is everything in my power as a citizen to change those laws.

For example Joe Blow is arrested for selling (comercially) firearms without a liscense and is brought into federal court. If he demands a jury trial and the jury refuses to convict (even if he was infact guilty of a violation) the people have just nullified a law. Sure it was just for that one case but that is the true voice of the people...The ballot box and the Jury box.

(FWIW, the judge can set aside the juries verdict and convict anyway but that can be grounds for an appeal)

please ignore spelling and grammer...I was suppose to leave work 20 minutes ago but got wrapped up in this post.
 
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