Gun selection question

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val567

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Question about scenario.

I want to minimize a black powder gun / cartridge ammo option for optimum conceal and carry while retaining enough energy for self defense considering pure lead ammo. Caliber / Model suggestions?

Best thing I have come up with so far:

Pistol: .357 magnum; short barrel?; stainless steel for corrosion resistance
Caliber of round: Loaded with .357 cartridge rounds. Maybe .38 special?
Type of round: Probably 158 grain Conical pure lead
Type of powder: True Black Powder (probably GOEX)
Powder load: Probably max and slightly compressed due to being black powder.

Purpose for pistol: Conceal and carry personal defense, and home defense.

Theory and background for questions: As of today, 4/15/2013, it is very hard to find ammo. I called literally 20 stores (not exaggerating), walmart, sporting goods stores, gun shops, etc. No one has much ammo selection. (They usually have 1-3 boxes of something you don't shoot.) Went online. No websites have good ammo selection. Backorder is often not even available. Gun shows have some, but ammo is becoming VERY expensive because of "supply and demand."

Reloading is starting to look real good as a back up option if I run out. It is also just a good idea to be able to do, and cheaper as well as a constructive hobby.

I don't want to go all the way back to cap and ball guns. I still want cartridges that I can actually reload at a reasonable speed.

If I REALLY have to, I can make my own black powder, so having a gun that fires rounds which are conducive to firing black powder is a good idea. (Yes, I have a chemistry background.)

What I would like:
(I realize these desires require compromise, and am looking for the best compromise.)

1. A gun tough enough to withstand a full black powder load, and is perfectly ok to fire black powder rounds in.

2. Corrosion / rust resistant (probably stainless steel)

3. A gun with sufficient energy to defend myself.

4. A gun light enough and small enough with a short enough barrel to be comfortable for conceal and carry. (Yeah yeah, you can technically CCW anything if you really want to. Look at Highlander. Duncan McCloud CCWs a greatsword, but I want something comfortable for daily wear even in summer if possible.)

5. A gun that where I don't have to worry about what is behind the target. (Honestly, if I have to draw my weapon, I am probably going to be so scared that worrying about concepts like "over-penetration" hurting the innocent person behind the target is probably not something I am going to remember to think about, so the bullet needs to stop in the target, which the pure lead will help with.)

My Questions:

1. Does a .357 magnum loaded with black powder and pure lead round have enough energy on impact to be good for self defense against a knave?

2. Does a .357 magnum loaded with black powder and pure lead round have too much energy, and I would need to worry about over-penetration and what is behind the target? If so, what smaller common caliber options do I have if I retain the same other requirements.

3. .44 magnum and .45 long colts with cartridges with black powder and pure lead rounds would certainly have over-penetration problems where you would possibly be hurting people behind the target right?

4. Would a BLACK POWDER .38 special be more concealable considering weight and size, WHILE STILL BEING SUFFICIENT for the task considering velocity and energy?

5. Black powder burns slower. What is the shortest barrel length I can go with while still retaining enough energy / velocity since I want to Conceal and Carry?

6. Since reliability can be an issue with black powder and reloading, it is better to go with a revolver instead of a autoloader so it can cycle the round even if it does not fire right?

7. Given all these desires, what gun would you recommend? (Does not have to be .357) I obviously want to minimize a black powder gun / cartridge ammo option for optimum conceal and carry while retaining enough energy for self defense considering pure lead ammo. Caliber / Model suggestions?
 
Welp, you could reload w/ black powder, I suppose...

I shoot my 1858 Remington .44 w/ 30-35 grains of Pyrodex 3F, that's a 140-ish gr. round ball @ probably 900-1000 fps. That puts it in .38 spl territory, muzzle energy wise (with an admittedly larger hole on each side!). Of course , the fouling is so bad that I think I'm going to save up for a Kirst converter!

Found this on the cast boolits forum (not my load data, use at your own peril!):

Uberti Cattleman 5.5 barrel
357 Mag brass
168gr SnakeBite bullet (Black Powder Bullet)
WSP Primers
22gr/v of Goex FFF
Est Velocity - 774 fps@223ft/lbs of energy

Again, somewhere in the .38 spl range.

I suppose the questions would be, what bullet are you using, how much space does that leave in the case, and how much compression would you put on the load?

Could you do it? Sure. Would it be a pain in the butt? Absolutely!
 
Others will likely chime in with a solid answer. I don't have one but am interested. A few observations and peanut gallery type comments.

1-I believe it is illegal to make your own BP so I wouldn't advertise the fact, though if you are only talking about what could be done in a very bad situation I don't see the harm in discussing it as an option.

2- 45 Colt was a BP cartridge as you probably mentioned, I think that'd be a good one. The old BP loads were not nearly as powerful as the modern smokeless "Ruger only" type loads. I don't think over penetration would be as much of an issue as one might think if you loaded to "cowboy" specs.

3- I know for sure that BP pressure is generally lower than smokeless, that's why smokeless velocities are so much higher. I believe BP does not burn slower... But faster, I also believe this is part of why pressures and velocities are lower. Someone else can probably explain this to us and correct my misgivings if I have them.

Another option is to stock up on a cheap but serviceable shotgun powder. For example I've worked up a nice load for 45 Colt using a Remington 2 1/2 primer, 7.0 gr of Alliant Red Dot and a 200 gr HSM cast at 839 fps. Start load with this powder/bullet/primer is 6.6 gr and 7.3 gr is max. This is out of a 4 5/8" barrel Ruger Blackhawk. Red Dot and other shotgun powders are a pretty cost effective way to stock up on something that works for lots of handgun loads. A pound of Red Dot makes 1,000 of my loads. A pound of that only goes for about $18, and is even cheaper when bought in bulk.

If you are ok with a two shooter, the Bond Arms 45 Colt may be worth a look. I'd like to get one myself. One of them even comes with a nice crossdraw type driving/concealment holster. The shorter barrel would reduce velocity even more but I'd bet my next paycheck it'd be a solid one shot man stopper.

Very interesting question; I look forward to more folks adding to the discussion.
 
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If I stretch I guess I can see why your asking this question. However it really is kind of close to a doomsday type question and those threads get closed pretty regularly here.

The obvious question is, if you envision having to make your own black powder, what are you going to do for primers? If your going to stock up on primers then why not go whole hog and get powder, cases and bullets too?

A good place to start answering many of your questions might be a reloading manual like 'ABC's of Reloading".

http://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloadin...1366087829&sr=1-1&keywords=abc's+of+reloading
 
I can actually find powder here locally, its just primers I have a problem finding. For .357 Mag ammo, I found a deal at the sportsmans guide of 250 rounds for a little over $100. And theres self defense ammo on the shelves locally. The whole ammo things gonna blow over at some point.
 
Just talking about the pride of knowing that you can do it all yourself if you really want to. Plus, it is cheap, constructive, and might even make me some money.

Shooting has always seemed expensive to me, so I like the cheap option. I've always been a do-it-yourselfer; never feel like I have mastery over a subject till I can.

I have been looking at a ruger GP100 because of how tough it is, but consider the ruger sp101 (only 5 shot). MUCH more concealable. Want to minimize the gun, but not to the point it doesn't have the energy to get the job done considering true black powder loads. Think the ruger sp101 is tough enough for a fully loaded black powder .357 magnum round? Maybe the barrel is too short?

Any other ideas maybe?

Ruger GP100 next to Ruger SP101




Also looked at S&W Model 327 and Model 627 (8 shot, but tough enough?):

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Smith and Wesson 60 also seems like it might be a good option?

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57912_757910_757787_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Those are their links.
 
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I kinda came down this same path about two years ago and ended up with a 3.75" bbl birdshead Vaquero in .45 Colt.

Not doomsday, just independence. I know how many primers my local firemarshall is willing for to have at the house, and I have that many. Rather than get into casting my own lead, I got a guy accross town who does that for me...

Under Federal law, with a broad brush, any one who can legally own a "firearm" is also legal to make small quantities of BP for personal sporting or personal cultural use. The law isn't worded that way, but it is pretty much the same questions, are you a citizen, are you a felon, are you an alcoholic. I have no idea what the state and muni laws are in your jurisdiction.

Besides .45 Colt, and epecially if you don't want a single action, I would be curious to know how a bullet around 240 grains chronos out of a .44magnum, say 4-6" bbl.

The thing I notice about .45Colt, compared to 9mm and 38Spec and a host of other "modern" cartridges is the case capacity is huge. Enormous. And this with modern smaller capacity not ballon head brass. .41 magnum is probably worth a look, and .327 magnum _might_ worth a look depending on one's tolerance for penetration and flexibility in bullet selection.
 
Sorry, got interupted. two other items.

I don't have a metric boat ton of BP reloading experience, but the 357/38Spec load given above doesn't sound especially far fetched, it is "about" what I would expect. Roughly. On the third tuesday of months with no R in the name...but I am not calling BS. Look for the biggest possible case volume for whatever bore diameter you select.

Second, yes, I think my dedicated BP guns are all going to be SS. I may send one in to get Parkerized or some such, but yep, I'll be packing Stainless mostly thank you.
 
Felt I should add that your Item 5 is very dangerous thinking. There's NO gun or round that you can fire that you "don't have to worry what's behind the target". Doesn't matter how weak/powerful, lead or high-tech JHP, you're responsible for everything that bullet does once it leaves the muzzle. Know your backstop, and know what's behind it, or don't pull the trigger.

Now, with that out of the way, in .357, it sounds like you want something like this: http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SP101-357.htm

Small frame to aid concealment, longer barrel to aid velocity w/BP, SS to resist corrosion. That would be my recommendation.
 
Tortuga12 said:
Felt I should add that your Item 5 is very dangerous thinking. There's NO gun or round that you can fire that you "don't have to worry what's behind the target". Doesn't matter how weak/powerful, lead or high-tech JHP, you're responsible for everything that bullet does once it leaves the muzzle. Know your backstop, and know what's behind it, or don't pull the trigger.
Click to expand...

Excellent point the rest of us overlooked. Thanks for catching that.
 
Probably not much given same barrel length. The wiki's you linked didn't provide test barrel length for the BPM. I bet if both had long barrels (say 10") the difference would no longer be negligible. However, the OP wants something that can be CC so the discussion is academic and off topic.
 
Black powder burns slower. What is the shortest barrel length I can go with while still retaining enough energy / velocity since I want to Conceal and Carry?
Click to expand...

Black powder doesn't burn it explodes.:eek: All of the charge is consumed instantly. As opposed to smokeless that burns at a controllable rate. Be very careful working up loads.
 
Yes, something to be said for self reliance and taking care of yourself the cheap way. Folks who say they can always make black powder must be pretty sure they will have a supply of potassium nitrate, which makes up about 75% of black powder. At many points in history, saltpeter has been hard to come by. During those times squads of people scoured city neighborhoods collecting the previous night's production of urine from chamber pots. Evaporation and further rather aromatic processing was needed. It will take several thousand gallons just to get a start, so, better get going! Compared to that the charcoal and sulfur will be trivial.
 
OP here: Ladies and gentlemen, I think I have a winner, and for those of you interested in a gun that can best fulfill the role I mentioned, I will tell you why.

The best thing I can find is the Ruger SP101 Model 5720.

When I say best, that is just the gun that meets "my" desired requirements best. "Your" best gun might be considerably different depending on what you want it to be able to do, but if you are interested in my mode of thought, here are my findings. Remember: want to minimize a black powder gun / cartridge ammo option for optimum conceal and carry while retaining enough energy for self defense considering pure lead ammo.

This is for maximum do-it-yourself-ness as well as cheap shooting, and reliability of getting ammo (since you can make most of it yourself) in today's ammo scarce environment. Will the shortage pass? Of course it will. It is already blowing over if you watched the news on it, but we should not miss the lesson this teaches us. What if there is an ammo shortage like there is today (April 2013)?

I had to do way more homework on this to get a solid answer than I really wanted to. Went through at least 90% of every "A" list gun manufacturer in existence. Considered all options. Left no stone unturned. Considered "B" list manufacturers? No. Why would you? This is your life we are talking about. Going to risk your life to save $150 for a $500 gun instead of a $650 gun? Not me.

Why the Ruger SP101 (model 5720) wins:
It is not the perfect gun, but since optimizing specs is a matter of compromise, I think this one does it best.

1) Stainless steel construction does not make it immune to corrosion, but more resistant since black powder is somewhat corrosive. Downside: A bit heavier.

2) Concealable: Weighs 25 oz. (unloaded) Max length 7.2" Max width 1.35"
Not the smallest or lightest thing, but pretty small and light considering .357 magnum. Certainly quite concealable with a good deal of comfort relative to other CCW guns. The weight also helps with recoil. A featherweight .357 mag hurts to shoot after a while. Yeah yeah, I am a wimp,and so fourth.

3) Revolver: Not that one would always do this, but if one wanted to flex their do-it-yourself muscle, black powder, pure lead, and reloading, reusing brass, and perhaps even making your own primers can lead to the gun going "click" rather than "bang." If a person has an autoloader and it goes "click," they are probably done for. They probably don't have time to get that dud ejected fast enough. A revolver can cycle to the next round even if one doesn't fire.

4) Quality: As with any "A" list manufacturer, we can expect the gun to perform the way the manufacturer claims. Have faith that Ruger isn't going to sell you a bad gun. It is over-engineered, and built like a tank, so will probably take more than some fool like me loading up cartridges with black powder to blow it up, which is, actually from what I hear, something some people do fairly regularly already.

5) Smooth: Sure sure, adjustable sights are nice, but you don't want them to get caught on something while you try to draw your gun. Seconds count! Same goes for the hammer. That is why I also like the version of the Ruger SP101 that has no hammer to cock back.

6) History suggests this is ok to do: The .38 was determined to be insufficient, and gave rise to the .38 special, which was originally a black powder round. The reason it is longer is because it needed the extra room for the amount of BP needed to project the round at the right speed since BP is less potent than modern smokeless powder. The .357 is the same exact projectile as the .38 special. Only difference is the length of the cartridge to allow even more powder.

Today, .38 special and .357 rounds are usually quite empty if you consider the cartridge's max capacity vs how many grains of smokeless powder are actually in them. There should be no reason why we can't simply go back to their original intended purpose.

As a side note, the piece of metal flung out the front of the gun in the 9mm is almost exactly the same size as the .38 special to within 2 one-thousandths of an inch (.357 vs .355 for the 9mm).

7) Power: Black powder is less powerful than modern smokeless powder. A .357 loaded up with smokeless powder fires like you might expect a .357 mag to fire, which is very hard. As soon as you load it up with black powder however, after looking at black powder ballistics comparing BP to modern, it loses a lot of it's velocity, and thus energy. It can take 2-5 times more BP to equal a load of modern powder. The .357 cartridge has the extra room needed for extra BP. I estimate I can at least get modern .38 special energy out of it, which is certainly the floor of acceptable personal defense firepower I am willing to accept, but I am willing to accept it.

The trick here is that if you insist on being able to step down to BP in a pinch, you also step down the velocity. In order to compensate, you have to step up the caliber, or BP load. In other words if you can't throw a little rock fast enough, throw a big rock slower, or just use more black powder. (Have to have a cartridge that can hold more though, thus the longer .357 mag)

That being said why not step up to a .44 magnum or a .45 long colt pistol? Because remember we are tying to minimize the size of the gun for max conceal. Go ahead and conceal that Taurus Judge if you can. I can't. Plus, be realistic. Are you REALLY going to CCW that .44 mag EVERY DAY and still be doing it after 9 months? Could you go even smaller than .357? Sure, but considering BP, maybe not without reducing energy to less than that of a .38 special. That would be unacceptable to me.

Be careful though! In some BP ballistics tests the BP was just as powerful as modern powder. It really depends on the quality of your BP! Start small and run tests.

8) Rifling: Why am I not talking about Smith and Wesson guns?! They have several guns that are basically the exact same thing right? Well, a very good reason actually: In 1993-1996 S&W decided it would be a good idea to move to a new type of rifling: ECM rifling.

ECM (Electro Chemical Machining) rifling is NOT the same as conventional rifling, which is also not the same as polygonal rifling.

Old fashioned Conventional Rifling:



ECM Rifling:



Polygonal Rifling:







What is best? Well it depends.

Polygonal Rifling:

This is where the rifling in the barrel results in more of a "rolling hill" effect than sharp 90 degree grooves like in conventional rifling.

Just as an example, Glock uses polygonal rifling. It gives a closer hug to the ammunition as it leaves the barrel reducing the amount of pressurized gasses that can escape around the round. This results in higher velocities, which results in more energy being delivered on impact. (The gun's polygonal rifling makes it hit harder.) Certainly worth considering, but what is the downside?

If you fire pure (non hardened) soft lead through it, the closer hug, causes the particles of lead that come off the main mass to smear against the side of the barrel causing streaks and fouling. Since the barrel is now slightly more constricted, the next shot makes it even worse, exaggerating the effect each time till your rifling is pretty much worthless and full of lead after sometimes as little as 20-30 shots. It is considerably more of a pain to clean afterward too.

It can still be done, and people do it. I am not going to try to tell a guy who reloads soft lead that 8,000 rounds later, it won't work in his Glock. I should caution against alternating between jacketed ammo and pure soft lead though. If you start firing with pure lead, don't go back to hard jacket rounds till you do some serious cleaning. The hard cases won't compress as easy. Apparently, in extreme cases, it can cause the ammo to get stuck in the barrel. One more shot and it can cause bulging of the barrel, or blow up the gun causing damage to the user or other people nearby.

Glock's intention is that you only use hard rounds in a Glock: Jacketed hollow point, Full metal jacket, etc. Supposedly, hardened lead rounds are still ok and do not cause nearly as much fouling.

For those of you who always hated Glock for their perfection, and always wanted to know what their HORRRRRIBLE secret was. There you go. Their legendary reliability is less legendary with pure lead rounds if you cast and reload them yourself. Otherwise they are fine. Just something to consider.

ECM rifling:

This is where a chemical process is used to make the rifling. As you can see in the pictures, the rifling is somewhere in between polygonal and conventional methods. It is not as much of a "rolling hill" effect as in polygonal rifling, but it is considerably more rounded on the edges than conventional rifling.

Result? As you might expect: something in between. It doesn't foul as bad when shooting pure lead as polygonal, but it does foul. Still hard to clean.

Conventional Rifling:

90 degree grooves clearly visible. Best for shooting pure lead. The extra particles of lead don't smear as bad, and just sit in the grooves. Lower velocity causes less particles in the first place. Less smearing makes dis-lodging of the particles during cleaning considerably faster and easier.

Downside? Lower velocities equals less energy on impact. (The piece of metal flung out the front of the gun isn't going as fast, so it doesn't hit as hard.)

SO... just cause it's new doesn't necessarily make it better! I always like to see innovation, but it must be tempered with the question, "Since it has been done this other way for over 100 years, I wonder if there is a reason why that is a pretty good way of doing it?"

It seems ALL S&W pistols use ECM rifling now, which I feel has no place in a revolver. Autoloader? Sure, maybe. Wheelgun? No. When I contacted S&W to see if I could get them to make me a version with the conventional rifling, their reply was:

Dear Customer,

IM sorry that is not possible at this time

If further assistance is required please reply accordingly.

Sincerely,

XYZ Representative

Thus, S&W is OFF the list of acceptability because I can't fire lead through it without a lot of hassle.

Downsides to the Ruger SP101:

1) Only 5 shots. Width is what is going to get you though on CCW. More capacity on a revolver equals larger cylinder. Have to compromise somewhere. If you are conceal and carrying and they notice in a store that has a no-gun policy they will ask you to leave or put the gun back, so it is important that they do not notice. 5 shots of defense is better than 0. Personally, I feel that any store that has a "no gun policy" doesn't deserve your business because they don't respect the constitution and it's amendments. Obviously, know your state's CCW laws so you don't get yourself in trouble especially regarding government buildings.

Side note: If you self-defense the heck out of a knave in Walmart with no-gun policy, I suppose a good enough lawyer might be able to build an argument for suing you because you shouldn't have had the gun. I am pretty sure the judge and jury won't care though if you say, "So what you are telling me is that I should have definitely been helpless and got stabbed to death instead right?" In most other scenarios other than government locations, a "don't ask, don't tell" policy seems like an option.

2) The grip kinda sucks on the Ruger SP101, so buy a Hogue grip ($25): http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=27_61_398

or one with a laser on it for faster target acquisition and accuracy ($260-ish).

3) OPTIONAL: There will always be people who complain about triggers not being perfect, so you could get a trigger job if you want, but not necessary. I'm not.

Conclusion:

I guess all my homework only serves to confirm the assertion of many, which is that the Ruger SP101 model 5720 is one of the 2 best conceal and carry commercially available revolvers in the world today. The other one being the S&W 60 / 640 / 649 (Those models are the same, just hammer variations). Given the rifling option, I choose the Ruger for more reloading options over S&W's higher velocity. You might choose differently. I was certainly considering Glock's large ammo capacity, but... I want to make my own stuff. If you are willing to stick to factory ammo, your options are much wider.

I could go into cheap and reliable things you will need to make your own ammo from scratch, as well as the method for making them, such as your own primers, but this post is already very long winded. I guess I might add that in another post if someone asks me to.
 
blackpowder and smokeless do not work the same way.

besides there were in the late times of the 1800s, 7 granulations of blackpowder, they came glazed and unglazed.

however the final gun you end up with is going to be limited by the choice of propellant. if you want something that will do better with black powder residue, your going to want to go stainless.
 
I must have missed the point, why not just buy 8 pounds of WW231 powder and keep in a cool dry place and reload 1000's of rounds of 38spl or 357 mild loads using standard reloading data. Use it in any 38/357 snub nosed revolver. More velocity and less pressure than BP.
 
Black powder doesn't burn it explodes. All of the charge is consumed instantly. As opposed to smokeless that burns at a controllable rate. Be very careful working up loads.
Click to expand...

Incorrect sir. Black powder burns and the burn rate is controlled by the granular size. Most common size is 2f, 3f and 4f.

With large volume loads of black powder it's normal to have unburned powder exit the barrel.
 
Oh something I forgot to mention is that, for people who don't know, black powder tends to be extra dirty. Shooting pure lead also tends to be extra dirty. Revolvers are better for this because they can cycle to the next round.

A semi-automatic pistol could jam up with particle garbage a lot easier. The real motivating factor for me though is that the internalized nature of the components, as well as the irritatingly inconvenient shape of the components of an autoloader would make doing a proper cleaning super irritating.

I must have missed the point, why not just buy 8 pounds of WW231 powder and keep in a cool dry place and reload 1000's of rounds of 38spl or 357 mild loads using standard reloading data. Use it in any 38/357 snub nosed revolver. More velocity and less pressure than BP.
Click to expand...

Actually, that is what I was planning on doing. Same thing for buying lots of primers. The only purpose for making your own stuff sometimes is to be able to say, "Haha! Look what I can do!" It has a certain amount of respect to it.
 
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