Gun Safe heater rods vs. Dessicant
- Thread starter TXAZ
- Start date
Ridgerunner665
New member
The rods work great... Just check them when you're in the safe one on a while.
Mine has been going strong for 5 years now, still warm every time a check it.
Mine has been going strong for 5 years now, still warm every time a check it.
Passive is better than active.
While rare, a heating rod gone bad can start a fire (called an arching ground fault that does not rise the current to the point of tripping the CB unless its on a GFI circuit.
Desiccant packs are cheap from McMaster or Grainger and last forever (and now power use)
While rare, a heating rod gone bad can start a fire (called an arching ground fault that does not rise the current to the point of tripping the CB unless its on a GFI circuit.
Desiccant packs are cheap from McMaster or Grainger and last forever (and now power use)
Both work well.
As usual, there are always trade-offs. I have been using a hot-rod for a number of years and in time, they will shrink you furniture. I check to time to make sure it is still warm but has decade some. So far so good ……
The desiccants packs or containers have to be monitored as well but can be easily regenerated. If used correctly, they will last you a long time and initial cost is low. At any rate, I suggest the use of a humidity monitor, in addition to the ones that sometimes come with the packs. You don't have to worry about a power source and can be placed anywhere in you safe. ….
Be Safe !!!
As usual, there are always trade-offs. I have been using a hot-rod for a number of years and in time, they will shrink you furniture. I check to time to make sure it is still warm but has decade some. So far so good ……
The desiccants packs or containers have to be monitored as well but can be easily regenerated. If used correctly, they will last you a long time and initial cost is low. At any rate, I suggest the use of a humidity monitor, in addition to the ones that sometimes come with the packs. You don't have to worry about a power source and can be placed anywhere in you safe. ….
Be Safe !!!
I think you really need to look at what each does. Then based on individual situation make a choice and move on the decision.
Using a Golden Rod for example will warm the sir in the safe a few degrees and least we forget the placement is important. You want it low so convection happens where the air is heated rises, then slowly cools falling to the bottom and rising again so we get some airflow. Heaters like this do not literally suck moisture out of the surrounding air like for example a dehumidifier would. The size is based on the volume of the safe and generally chosen from a chart. I am not going to get into the physics of the slightly heated air resulting in a lower humidity. They work fine and last a long time.
I use desiccant as in my area and environment that works fine for me. I also had an endless supply of the stuff. Desiccant is a hygroscopic substance which means it does suck in water from the air around it. I also use little humidity indicator cards and a few times a year bake out my desiccant bags:
I also make sure that every now and then I check what is going on inside my safe:
Wow, just noticed the recorded temperature and humidity was a two year old sample.
In conclusion depending on your environment determine what is a good choice for you. Just make sure every now and then you look in on what is going on in your safe.
Ron
Using a Golden Rod for example will warm the sir in the safe a few degrees and least we forget the placement is important. You want it low so convection happens where the air is heated rises, then slowly cools falling to the bottom and rising again so we get some airflow. Heaters like this do not literally suck moisture out of the surrounding air like for example a dehumidifier would. The size is based on the volume of the safe and generally chosen from a chart. I am not going to get into the physics of the slightly heated air resulting in a lower humidity. They work fine and last a long time.
I use desiccant as in my area and environment that works fine for me. I also had an endless supply of the stuff. Desiccant is a hygroscopic substance which means it does suck in water from the air around it. I also use little humidity indicator cards and a few times a year bake out my desiccant bags:
I also make sure that every now and then I check what is going on inside my safe:
Wow, just noticed the recorded temperature and humidity was a two year old sample.
In conclusion depending on your environment determine what is a good choice for you. Just make sure every now and then you look in on what is going on in your safe.
Ron
A long time and not documented
The only documentation I have is after a number years, The bands on some of my rifles, became loose. It has never been a major problem and just rotated the rifles that were closer to the rod. I don't see it as a big problem but others might. Keep in mind that you are taking a rifle from an ambient environment, into a drier enclosure. I have never encountered a rusting problem not even under my steel but plates. ……
Be Safe !!!
The only documentation I have is after a number years, The bands on some of my rifles, became loose. It has never been a major problem and just rotated the rifles that were closer to the rod. I don't see it as a big problem but others might. Keep in mind that you are taking a rifle from an ambient environment, into a drier enclosure. I have never encountered a rusting problem not even under my steel but plates. ……
Be Safe !!!
big al hunter
New member
I only use desicant in my safe. I have had furniture shrink after several years. It doesn't matter what system you use, if it changes the humidity the wood will change as well. The most notable change for me was a Win 94 that spent no time in the field over several years. When I pulled it out to show a friend, the stock was loose and every screw in the wood was loose.
TXAZ,
Ideally, you would use something the Munter's type dehumidifier, but the heaters are way easier and less power hungry. Forced circulation is superior, as wet air is less dense than dry air, so it tends to float up away from the heater. The opposing influence is that warmer air rises, so heat increases circulation right up until the air has cooled to where its density equals that of the cooler wet air, and then, as it cools further, it starts to fall. So the two effects fight each other and forced circulation prevents creating an air ceiling in which circulation is only part way up the safe before the air starts to return to the bottom. It doesn't take much, though. Think, ceiling fan on low rather than a high-speed blower.
I have got good circulation by mounting a small-ish DC computer fan on legs where the mounting holes are, so it stands horizontal, then running it off a DC wall wart at half its rated voltage or less. Most such fans have switched DC motors that don't mind running that way, and that will start and run with as little as 1/3 rated voltage in some instances. At half voltage, you get 1/4 the power moving air, but at that lower speed the noise is negligible, and the bearings last indefinitely, and dust doesn't build up on the blades much in a closed space. The fan I linked to would add about half a watt to your heater load.
Desiccants pull more water from air faster when they've recently been "recharged" (maybe it should be called 'discharging,' as the effect of the heating them is to drive water out). In a sealed area, the relative humidity limit desiccants allow increases as they fill with water and there is less remaining capacity to attract and hold water.
The same thing happens with air. Dry air is a desiccant, too, and the closer air is to having all the water it can dissolve, the higher the relative humidity is. This is true by definition, as relative humidity is just the percent of the air's capacity to dissolve water that has been used up. The warmer air is, the more water weight it can attract and dissolve, which is why heating it lowers relative humidity.
The advantage of using air as a desiccant is you effectively "charge" it continuously with the heater. As long as the heater has more power than you need, you can control the humidity of the heater's effect with a humidistat, but you can't do that with the desiccant unless you open and close a sealed opening to it. A desiccant can over-dry wood, as described, and even cause cracks if it goes too far. The general rule of thumb is that wood will change length along the grain about 1% for every 4% change in moisture content. At an RH of about 80% or below, the water content of the wood, allowed to equilibrate in that RH (and this happens through finishes, albeit more gradually than for bare wood) is to multiply RH times 0.186. So, if you want to limit wood length change to 1%, don't change the RH more than 5.4%.
How much should you actually reduce humidity? For wood size, you would like it to be as little as possible. For corrosion protection, you want the opposite. This page, when you scroll down, the second illustration is a graph of the change in the air corrosion rate of steel vs. RH. At 60% RH, the rate is about 18 times slower than it is in 80% RH. Indeed, there is a very sharp knee there, and the rate drops off much more slowly after that. At 40% RH, it is extremely hard to get any air rusting and at 30% and below, it is essentially impossible.
But 30% RH can split stocks and the like. I think 60%, therefore, makes the obvious target value to shoot for (but any amount helps). This calculator will help you figure out what you need, ideally. To use it, put in your temperature on the top argument space and RH on the bottom one, and click on "Calculate." It will figure out the dew point temperature for the amount of water in the air. Next, click to clear temperature at the top and the RH at the bottom. Put 60 in at the bottom for your desired RH and the top will display the temperature you need to raise the safe to on the inside to get it down to 60%.
For example:
I clicked on the button to use the Fahrenheit temperature scale at the top left. I put in 70°F degrees at the top and 80% RH at the bottom, leaving the dew point temperature blank, and then clicked on calculate. It came up with a dewpoint of 63.55°F. Then I clicked on the button to the right of both the 70°F temperature I'd put in at the top and the 80% RH at the bottom to clear them. I then typed in the desired 60% RH at the bottom and clicked on calculate. It tells me I need to raise the inside temperature to 78.59°F, or 8.59°F to get down to the 60% RH I want. So I need a heater big enough to do that.
If I substitute an ambient temperature of 90°F and go through the process again, I find I have to raise the temperature by 9.33°F to get RH down to 60% inside. Given the amount of required temperature gain goes up with the ambient temperature, you really want to make the calculation for your worst case high outside temeprature so you are covered.
Ideally, you would use something the Munter's type dehumidifier, but the heaters are way easier and less power hungry. Forced circulation is superior, as wet air is less dense than dry air, so it tends to float up away from the heater. The opposing influence is that warmer air rises, so heat increases circulation right up until the air has cooled to where its density equals that of the cooler wet air, and then, as it cools further, it starts to fall. So the two effects fight each other and forced circulation prevents creating an air ceiling in which circulation is only part way up the safe before the air starts to return to the bottom. It doesn't take much, though. Think, ceiling fan on low rather than a high-speed blower.
I have got good circulation by mounting a small-ish DC computer fan on legs where the mounting holes are, so it stands horizontal, then running it off a DC wall wart at half its rated voltage or less. Most such fans have switched DC motors that don't mind running that way, and that will start and run with as little as 1/3 rated voltage in some instances. At half voltage, you get 1/4 the power moving air, but at that lower speed the noise is negligible, and the bearings last indefinitely, and dust doesn't build up on the blades much in a closed space. The fan I linked to would add about half a watt to your heater load.
Desiccants pull more water from air faster when they've recently been "recharged" (maybe it should be called 'discharging,' as the effect of the heating them is to drive water out). In a sealed area, the relative humidity limit desiccants allow increases as they fill with water and there is less remaining capacity to attract and hold water.
The same thing happens with air. Dry air is a desiccant, too, and the closer air is to having all the water it can dissolve, the higher the relative humidity is. This is true by definition, as relative humidity is just the percent of the air's capacity to dissolve water that has been used up. The warmer air is, the more water weight it can attract and dissolve, which is why heating it lowers relative humidity.
The advantage of using air as a desiccant is you effectively "charge" it continuously with the heater. As long as the heater has more power than you need, you can control the humidity of the heater's effect with a humidistat, but you can't do that with the desiccant unless you open and close a sealed opening to it. A desiccant can over-dry wood, as described, and even cause cracks if it goes too far. The general rule of thumb is that wood will change length along the grain about 1% for every 4% change in moisture content. At an RH of about 80% or below, the water content of the wood, allowed to equilibrate in that RH (and this happens through finishes, albeit more gradually than for bare wood) is to multiply RH times 0.186. So, if you want to limit wood length change to 1%, don't change the RH more than 5.4%.
How much should you actually reduce humidity? For wood size, you would like it to be as little as possible. For corrosion protection, you want the opposite. This page, when you scroll down, the second illustration is a graph of the change in the air corrosion rate of steel vs. RH. At 60% RH, the rate is about 18 times slower than it is in 80% RH. Indeed, there is a very sharp knee there, and the rate drops off much more slowly after that. At 40% RH, it is extremely hard to get any air rusting and at 30% and below, it is essentially impossible.
But 30% RH can split stocks and the like. I think 60%, therefore, makes the obvious target value to shoot for (but any amount helps). This calculator will help you figure out what you need, ideally. To use it, put in your temperature on the top argument space and RH on the bottom one, and click on "Calculate." It will figure out the dew point temperature for the amount of water in the air. Next, click to clear temperature at the top and the RH at the bottom. Put 60 in at the bottom for your desired RH and the top will display the temperature you need to raise the safe to on the inside to get it down to 60%.
For example:
I clicked on the button to use the Fahrenheit temperature scale at the top left. I put in 70°F degrees at the top and 80% RH at the bottom, leaving the dew point temperature blank, and then clicked on calculate. It came up with a dewpoint of 63.55°F. Then I clicked on the button to the right of both the 70°F temperature I'd put in at the top and the 80% RH at the bottom to clear them. I then typed in the desired 60% RH at the bottom and clicked on calculate. It tells me I need to raise the inside temperature to 78.59°F, or 8.59°F to get down to the 60% RH I want. So I need a heater big enough to do that.
If I substitute an ambient temperature of 90°F and go through the process again, I find I have to raise the temperature by 9.33°F to get RH down to 60% inside. Given the amount of required temperature gain goes up with the ambient temperature, you really want to make the calculation for your worst case high outside temeprature so you are covered.
Except when it’s fog.
I had a real problem with “clouds are lighter” until I started flying sailplanes.
Then it became obvious.
Thanks Unclenick, that tome is worth at least a couple of beers if you’re ever in Texas.
I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
Yes, matching temperature is key.
Water molecules, with an atomic weight of 16, are lighter than the diatomic molecules of Nitrogen (28) and Oxygen (32) that dominate air's mass. Water vapor, being a gas, occupies as much space per molecule, at a given temperature, as any other gas (see Ideal Gas Law), and attraction to the other air molecules keeps it dissolved and attempting to disperse evenly over time.
Condensed water, like the microdroplets in fog and clouds, however, are not gas, so they are denser than air and aren't driven to rise on their own. But they don't form until the air reaches 100% relative humidity (the dew point), so you can see how humid air at less than 100% RH would rise until it got high enough to get cold enough that the temperature dropped to the dew point so clouds could form. If the droplets try to fall, they fall into warmer air and redissolve into gas (evaporate). In cumulus clouds that falling cloud air, replaces by warmer air from redissolving at the bottom can create substantial up and downdrafts, which is why aircraft try to steer clear of them.
After rain or other wetness on the ground that can feed humidity as fast as humid air can rise, if the temperature drops enough, you get a cloud forming at ground level (fog) before the air gets aloft.
Yes, matching temperature is key.
Water molecules, with an atomic weight of 16, are lighter than the diatomic molecules of Nitrogen (28) and Oxygen (32) that dominate air's mass. Water vapor, being a gas, occupies as much space per molecule, at a given temperature, as any other gas (see Ideal Gas Law), and attraction to the other air molecules keeps it dissolved and attempting to disperse evenly over time.
Condensed water, like the microdroplets in fog and clouds, however, are not gas, so they are denser than air and aren't driven to rise on their own. But they don't form until the air reaches 100% relative humidity (the dew point), so you can see how humid air at less than 100% RH would rise until it got high enough to get cold enough that the temperature dropped to the dew point so clouds could form. If the droplets try to fall, they fall into warmer air and redissolve into gas (evaporate). In cumulus clouds that falling cloud air, replaces by warmer air from redissolving at the bottom can create substantial up and downdrafts, which is why aircraft try to steer clear of them.
After rain or other wetness on the ground that can feed humidity as fast as humid air can rise, if the temperature drops enough, you get a cloud forming at ground level (fog) before the air gets aloft.
Right, it's way thinner up high, but the rising moist air doesn't remain sea-level dense. It expands as the pressure drops, and that is a good part of what makes it cooler as it rises. As long as its water content is higher than the surrounding air, at any pressure, it will rise through that surrounding air.
Mind you, I'm no meteorologist. If you ask me why there are distinct and widely separated cloud layers of different types over the same piece of land, I can give you some speculation, but I'd have to look up the actual details.
Mind you, I'm no meteorologist. If you ask me why there are distinct and widely separated cloud layers of different types over the same piece of land, I can give you some speculation, but I'd have to look up the actual details.
reynolds357
New member
I use rods in my safes. As mentioned above they are electrical, but mine are UL approved. My safes are in my basement on Combined fault breakers so I am not worried about arc or ground fault.
reynolds357
New member
Moist air is more Dense than dry air. A cubic foot of air at 99% humidity weighs more than a cubic foot of air at 0% humidity.