Gun Powder: Mfg Proprietary vs. Over the Counter

SEHunter

New member
So does anybody truly know the difference between these two grades of powder? I've always wondered if the ammo manufacturers ALWAYS load with their proprietary "secret" powders or if some of it is the same that we as hand loaders buy from our shooting supplier of choice.

If it's truly different, what makes one dominant over the other? One example is Hornadys "Superformance" loads that boast 100-200 more fps with allowable pressures and accuracy. Another that comes to mind is Weatherby factory ammo. What specific character of these powders are not contained in commercial powders? Is it intentional by powder manufacturers to not provide powder that has max performance available to the public?
 
Last edited:
Bulk powders (used by ammunition manufacturers) are much more variable in burn characteristics, making them unsuitable for loads that rely on published data (unless you want to publish data for every single lot of powder).

Canister powders (available to consumers) are held to (or selected due to meeting) much tighter tolerances, so that each lot's burn characteristics don't deviate too far from published data.


Some bulk powders are also blends of different powders, or powders with modifying agents, and are tailored to get a specific result in a single cartridge/bullet combination, or a very limited collection of similar cartridge/bullet combinations. Because the applications are so limited and the risk of stupid people injuring themselves is much greater, these powders simply aren't available in canister form.

You can get somewhat close to a 'blended' powder in canister form by using some of the newer propellants like Superformance, where the applications are limited and there are very strongly worded warnings not to use the powder in any cartridge/bullet combination not specifically listed in the published data. But, you'll typically still fall short of factory performance levels.



Yes, some manufacturers do sometimes use 'canister-grade' propellants for commercial ammunition. Hornady at least claims to use canister-grade LeverEvolution powder in at least four of their LeverEvolution factory loads. Whether or not they're lots of the powder that weren't quite good enough to be packaged for consumer use is an unanswered question, though.
And some ammunition 're-manufacturing' companies use canister-grade propellants. But they're generally purchased in 40-lb kegs, several thousand pounds at a time.
 
Makes sense. It sounds like from that explanation that canister powders would definitely be better for the hand loader from a safety perspective. You mentioned falling short of commercial performance and that's what I wonder about. With all the burn rates available, you would think it would always be possible to match that. In the economy priced ammo, I've found it is but then you have ones such as Weatherby factory ammo and Buffalo Bore.

I've been blown away at the advertised performance of some of Buffalo Bores +P ammo. I always wanted to know what powder they used in those. It's been rumored that a lot of Weatherby factory ammo uses Norma MRP and MRP2 but I don't know that it's been proven. It may come from the fact that they use or have used Norma brass so some may assume it's also Norma powders.
 
Buffalo Bore runs high pressure in much of their ammunition. Often, SAAMI pressure limits are thrown right out the window. They load for velocity, rather than sane pressure.
The situation has changed in the last few years, but when I needed to provide someone with a good example of just how hot Buffalo Bore loads some cartridges, I used to suggest googling ".444 Marlin Buffalo Bore". As of 4-5 years ago, the top 20+ hits were "Kabooms" caused by nothing more than insane chamber pressure. (And .45-70 wasn't far behind.)
Sure, they had the highest advertised muzzle velocities for ANY bullet weight that they loaded. But they also had a good chance of turning your rifle to shrapnel. :rolleyes:


I have no idea what Weatherby (Norma) does. They have a lot of different powders available. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there's some blending going on.
 
mauser seems to have addressed it all well.

One of the things to remember is that you can't make every tool fit hundreds of situations. You can take any single rifle powder, and make it work adequately for a hundred cartridges in a variety of bullets and weights. A maker would be ABSOLUTELY STUPID to sell a powder that wasn't very versatile, meaning that it will work in a wide variety of loads and cartridges giving complete combustion over a wide range of pressure, without a high risk of radical pressure peaks.

There are literally hundreds of possible ranges/combinations for a 150 grain 30-06 round, and plenty of canister powders do it very well. There are also probably going to be a number of non retail powders that are capable of doing the job better than any of the retail powders.

For example, .243win works well with 4350. It's my default for all weights. The thing is that there are almost certainly powders that are better for that exact load.

Think about the billions of rounds of .223 ammo made. If a company can use a proprietary powder that will produce identical results to any other powder around, but do it with 5% reduction of powder used, there are millions of dollars to be saved.
 
Cool thread! In regards to the buffalo bore angle, I was astounded by their claims of velocities on 44 Remington magnum +p+ 340grains. I happened to own three examples of the advertised test weapon. Soooo. First I cronied a few rounds thru a few weapons, consistently underperforming the velocity claims, in all three weapons. , then i pulled a slug, weighed the charge. While i was doing this, i was cirtain i could visually identify the powder used, it looked just like h.s.-6.....so, i reverse engineered the same round with regular old hodgdon hs6 @ the same powder and projectiles weights. Sure enough, my mock up round performance was pretty close. So, i dunno if its the same powder, but it sure seems like it was.
 
I ran into that with Remington Golden Sabre in 9mm

Those rounds shoot spot on, much better than I can.

When I am done with my hand loads I run one GS through it to be sure I am on with the laser. Invariably it does a bulls eye.

Years back I had a 7mm rem mag. Time to go hunting, open up the storage and no 7mm. Hmmm, I was sure .......

No time to reload, so I went down to the store and got some 7mm Federal Premium on sale.

Turns out they shot as good as anything I ever did hand load wise from that gun (not typical but it was a decent shooter but a 1.5 inch at best"

After that, I just bought it, not worth the effort for a couple of check in shots and maybe one animal shot a year.
 
SEHunter,

There's really no fixed answer to this. As Frankenmauser explained, when the powder is the same powder, such as, say, IMR 4895 used in a commercial load, it will be usually just be bulk grade instead of the narrower burn rate canister grade. The reason is simple: manufacturers load with pressure guns that let them adjust loads to specific parameters, and while a small minority of handloaders have pressure test gear, too, most have to work only from recipes. The only way to keep recipes valid is to use a more tightly controlled powder burn rate, which is what canister grade has. This is made by the manufacturer who, whenever a bulk lot of 4895 comes out extra fast or extra slow, holds some of those lots back to blend with future lots of 4895 to correct their burn rates to canister grade tolerances.

But that isn't the only thing going on. For example, Federal gets special IMR4064 made with additives for flash suppression for making Mk.316 m.0 sniper ammo for the military. Some of Hornady's old Light Magnum loads used an odd elastic powder that was so heavily compressed it would gradually expand and overflow a case when you pulled a bullet from it. The handloader just doesn't have tools that will let him get enough of that sort of powder into a case.

The idea that ammo or powder manufacturers blend different powders is, AFAICT, a myth. The powder manufacturers blend different lots of the same types of powder, and some kinds of spherical powders have pretty wide particle size ranges, but I've never seen, for example, a stick powder with two different diameters or lengths of sticks in the same container. The reason is that stick powders settle quite a bit with vibration, where spherical powders don't, and the result is that you could expect to see stratification with transportation vibration of a blend of different stick sizes, and that would give you different burn rates for different parts of a container of powder. If it happened in loaded ammunition it would change the pressure curve. So, AFAIK, they only blend lots of the exact same type of powder, as I described. The blending also has to be proved to be adequately homogeneous, and pretty much, only the powder manufacturing factories have blending and testing setups for doing that. I found that out by talking to Hodgdon if they published powder properties like those in QuickLOAD, and they told me to get all those numbers they would have to pay a lab about $50K a pop. They just distribute what they order to a certain specification from the powder plant, leaving the the powder maker to work out how to get it there.

Another board member told me one time that he had pulled down Remington Core-Lokt ammunition (now a 77 year old bullet design) he'd purchased at different times over several decades and at various times found stick, ball, and even flake powders in the same bullet weight for the same chambering. Because the manufacturer has pressure test guns, he can adjust the load of any powder to a particular test gun velocity or peak pressure. He then only has to verify that the powder chosen produces both within acceptable limits. But you can bet there will be a tolerance of some kind for this that varies a bit from lot to lot. SAAMI accepts ±90 fps, about 3 times what the military accepts. But that flexibility allows a manufacturer to use some powder he has on hand rather than having to order and wait for a special lot to be made, provided this meets his own internal standards.

It should also be noted that SAAMI pressure and velocity test barrels have minimum chambers and specific bore cross-sectional areas and specific bore lengths that your gun may not match exactly. This, on top of factory velocity tolerances, both can contribute to you having different velocities than a manufacturer claims for his ammunition.

Bottom line: can you duplicate factory ammo? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
 
Once again, great insightful post. Just goes to show you (me), just when you think you know how things work or should work, there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. That was very interesting about the Remington Core-Lokt factory ammo. That kinda blows the idea out of the water that "my gun likes x-brand". Yeah, maybe this month, haha.
 
Powder stories I have read:

Phil Sharpe's description of IMR 4895 production during WWII is interesting.
He pointed out that a "lot of powder" was a car load lot; 55,000 - 60,000 lbs. Nothing to do with plant operation or lab testing. He did say that in wartime there was little inventory holdup, much powder going from powder mill to cartridge factory.

And they were making a LOT of carloads, the largest .30-06 plant consuming almost a carload a day of powder. So they were likely making multiple carload lots of indistinguishable burn rate before a plant shutdown for a maintenance turnaround shifted properties a bit.

Powder sold surplus by DCM/NRA was known by lot number and data circulated accordingly. There was one lot of 4895 considered to be nearly as fast as 3031. That was cheap powder, worth developing loads for.
But Hodgdon blended lots for canister packing.

Jac Weller said that he loaded most ammo for convenience and volume, that if it shot into the same group as factory loads at 100 yards prone, that was good enough for him. But he loaded .30-06 Match with the proper charge of his lot of 4895 so he could use standard sight dope for the NMC ranges.

Hodgdon sold H4831, suplus IMR 4831 20mm powder for years before DuPont put it on the retail market. Then it turned out to not be the same. DuPont said they hadn't changed anything, that Hodgdon's stuff must have been old and stale. And when Hodgdon had to hire fresh powder made, they ordered it to match their surplus, not to copy the DuPont product. So read the label.

There was a lot of 7mm Magnum loaded with IMR 7828 before you could buy it by the pound over the counter.


A gunzine writer dissected some of the then-new 7mm 08 Remington.
He was surprised to find that the alleged 140 gr Core Lokt bullets weighed 139 gr, just like a Hornady.
He was even more surprised to find the case full of a Ball powder that looked a lot like W748.
Reloads with the same weight of 748 and a 139 Hornady shot the same POI and velocity as factory.



I once pulled some Aluminum Blazer 9mm and .45. The powder looked like Bullseye and was in the weight range of safe loads for Bullseye. Was it Bullseye? I dunno.


Back when Hercules made gunpowder, I read that they made nine different grades of Red Dot. Planned or sorted by test, I don't know. Any road, there were Red Dots 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90. Canister Red Dot was no 30. The others went to OEM as ordered for a particular load.
Alliant originally advertised Power Pistol as factory designation BE84, used for a lot of GI 9mm before it was released commercial

So it's not always a Secret Blend, or production variations outside canister spec being sold in bulk, they make powders for the trade that they do not sell retail, probably don't even tell anybody outside the trade that they make at all. I have read that Vihtavuori makes about three times as many grades as they canister.
I figure that if you manufacture ammo, you can order most of what you need out of the commercial catalog without having to resort to special mixes.
 
Back
Top