Gun laws in other countries?
- Thread starter nebob
- Start date
Well, I'm only vaguely familiar with two countries: Switzerland and Germany. Most everyone knows about Switzerland--every able-bodied male citizen there is required to have an automatic firearm in the house (because all of them are part of the militia).
As far as Germany goes, a fellow HK-lister from that country gave me this info:
"> And I am unfamiliar with gun ownership laws in Germany--the laws are
> stricter than they are here, are they not?
"They are terrible over here. No one may visit a gun shop and buy a gun
(only 4.5 mm airguns and gas guns for people over 18), you have to get a
WaffenBesitzKarte (gun license). But you can only get one if you have been
in a shooting club for 6 months REGULARLY.
After getting a WBK you can buy two weapons, the first one should be a .22
so you have only one gun free. To buy more than one gun you have to have a
need for more than two.
"As I've said: terrible."
jth
------------------
Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
As far as Germany goes, a fellow HK-lister from that country gave me this info:
"> And I am unfamiliar with gun ownership laws in Germany--the laws are
> stricter than they are here, are they not?
"They are terrible over here. No one may visit a gun shop and buy a gun
(only 4.5 mm airguns and gas guns for people over 18), you have to get a
WaffenBesitzKarte (gun license). But you can only get one if you have been
in a shooting club for 6 months REGULARLY.
After getting a WBK you can buy two weapons, the first one should be a .22
so you have only one gun free. To buy more than one gun you have to have a
need for more than two.
"As I've said: terrible."
jth
------------------
Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
There is an expression in German that I can not remember exactly, but the
translation would be close to, “There are good people in every country.”
-------
In late 1961 I was in Berlin, Germany stationed at Templehof Central Airport.
After an incident too long to relate here, a young German fellow whom I had
come to know rather well took me to his home. He lived with his Mother, his
Sister, and his Grandfather (who was in his nineties).
My friend and his Grandfather had a short but animated discussion, of which I
understood absolutely nothing. Then the grandfather stood up. I could tell he was an
amputee and was wearing an artificial leg. Struggling a bit to walk, he held his
head extremely high and had a very grim look on his face. I did not know what
to expect. But he came to me, put his arm around my shoulder, and said some
incredibly filthy things about Russians! He whacked his artificial leg with his
cane and, as my friend translated, Grandfather explained that the Russians had
cut off his leg because he tried to escape from prison camp.
By 1961, Americans already had shown both the ability and the resolve to protect
Berlin - and Berliners appreciated the American presence. That may explain
the emotional discussion that continued between my friend and his
Grandfather.
Suddenly they both stopped talking and looked hard at me. It was disconcerting
to a kid in his early twenties!
Then, they swore me to secrecy on my honor and to my God. After which
they took me to their cellar. It was dank and dark. In the dim light I saw
shelves against the far wall. The two Germans removed some junk from the
shelves, then lifted one end and swung the shelves out from the wall grinning at
my surprise.
There was a hole in the rough brick cellar wall. The hole was about one foot
from the floor and the hole itself was about three feet high and two feet wide.
We crawled through the hole into a small room about ten feet long and four
feet wide. Ancient timbers supported crumbling dirt walls. The floor was
slightly slanted, smooth and a bit slippery with moisture. At the "high side" of
the room were shelves.
In the most conspiratorial manner, they unwrapped two heavily greased
firearms, indicating five or six similar packages also contained guns. The
grandfather held one in a firing position and made a machine gun noise -
indicating the guns were full auto. The younger German explained these were
all Soviet arms from World War II.
Also on the shelves were ten or more wooden crates which appeared to be
home-made. Each crate was a bit smaller than a beer case. The younger
German, with a big grin and eyes that lit up the entire cellar, grabbed one box
and shoved it into my arms. It was so heavy I could hardly hold it. It was full
of ammunition.
The older German spoke and my friend translated. “When Russians come, you
die at Templehof. No good. You come here. We kill many Russian together.”
We spent a short time as they showed me how to load, hold, and shoot their
firearms effectively. Then, after again ensuring I would keep their secret, we
went upstairs and drank an ungodly amount of cognac.
The next morning I returned to my barracks at Templehof. I’ve never told
anyone about their stash of firearms until now. But I’ve kept in occasional
contact with the young man. He’s now in his mid-fifties and is a high-ranking
officer in the Berlin police force. Although we’ve stayed in touch neither of us
has ever mentioned what he and his Grandfather showed me in a little, damp
underground arsenal in Berlin, some 38 years ago.
Perhaps now you can see why the two stories, "Sunset at Coffin Rock" and "Sunrise at Coffin Rock" touch me to an extent I could not explain - until now.
translation would be close to, “There are good people in every country.”
-------
In late 1961 I was in Berlin, Germany stationed at Templehof Central Airport.
After an incident too long to relate here, a young German fellow whom I had
come to know rather well took me to his home. He lived with his Mother, his
Sister, and his Grandfather (who was in his nineties).
My friend and his Grandfather had a short but animated discussion, of which I
understood absolutely nothing. Then the grandfather stood up. I could tell he was an
amputee and was wearing an artificial leg. Struggling a bit to walk, he held his
head extremely high and had a very grim look on his face. I did not know what
to expect. But he came to me, put his arm around my shoulder, and said some
incredibly filthy things about Russians! He whacked his artificial leg with his
cane and, as my friend translated, Grandfather explained that the Russians had
cut off his leg because he tried to escape from prison camp.
By 1961, Americans already had shown both the ability and the resolve to protect
Berlin - and Berliners appreciated the American presence. That may explain
the emotional discussion that continued between my friend and his
Grandfather.
Suddenly they both stopped talking and looked hard at me. It was disconcerting
to a kid in his early twenties!
Then, they swore me to secrecy on my honor and to my God. After which
they took me to their cellar. It was dank and dark. In the dim light I saw
shelves against the far wall. The two Germans removed some junk from the
shelves, then lifted one end and swung the shelves out from the wall grinning at
my surprise.
There was a hole in the rough brick cellar wall. The hole was about one foot
from the floor and the hole itself was about three feet high and two feet wide.
We crawled through the hole into a small room about ten feet long and four
feet wide. Ancient timbers supported crumbling dirt walls. The floor was
slightly slanted, smooth and a bit slippery with moisture. At the "high side" of
the room were shelves.
In the most conspiratorial manner, they unwrapped two heavily greased
firearms, indicating five or six similar packages also contained guns. The
grandfather held one in a firing position and made a machine gun noise -
indicating the guns were full auto. The younger German explained these were
all Soviet arms from World War II.
Also on the shelves were ten or more wooden crates which appeared to be
home-made. Each crate was a bit smaller than a beer case. The younger
German, with a big grin and eyes that lit up the entire cellar, grabbed one box
and shoved it into my arms. It was so heavy I could hardly hold it. It was full
of ammunition.
The older German spoke and my friend translated. “When Russians come, you
die at Templehof. No good. You come here. We kill many Russian together.”
We spent a short time as they showed me how to load, hold, and shoot their
firearms effectively. Then, after again ensuring I would keep their secret, we
went upstairs and drank an ungodly amount of cognac.
The next morning I returned to my barracks at Templehof. I’ve never told
anyone about their stash of firearms until now. But I’ve kept in occasional
contact with the young man. He’s now in his mid-fifties and is a high-ranking
officer in the Berlin police force. Although we’ve stayed in touch neither of us
has ever mentioned what he and his Grandfather showed me in a little, damp
underground arsenal in Berlin, some 38 years ago.
Perhaps now you can see why the two stories, "Sunset at Coffin Rock" and "Sunrise at Coffin Rock" touch me to an extent I could not explain - until now.
This isn't exactly what you are looking for, but it is interesting...
NRA-ILA Fact Sheet
Fables, Myths, and Other Tall Tales
FABLE: Foreign countries such as England and Japan have much
less crime than the U.S. because of their more severe gun laws.
Actually, crime rates are the same in Switzerland, Israel and Norway, where gun laws are relatively mild, as they are in England, Italy and Japan, where guns are almost entirely prohibited.
In Switzerland, most citizens are members of the national defense force and are issued fully-automatic rifles and ammunition, to be kept at home, ready to be put into use in a national emergency. Outside their formal military duties, the Swiss expend about 60 million rounds of ammunition with the guns each year, mostly for target practice. Crimes with the guns are virtually unheard of. By comparison, "Italy's gun law, 'the most restrictive in Europe,' had left her southern provinces alone with a thousand firearm murders a year, thirty times Switzerland's total."1
England annually has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before imposing its tough laws. Furthermore, "crime rates for robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft are higher in England (including Wales) than in the United States." And while U.S. crime rates have been declining significantly, the reverse is true in England and Wales.
According to a late 1998 study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, "For most U.S. crimes . . . the latest crime rates (1996) are the lowest recorded in the 16-year period from 1981 to 1996. By comparison, English crime rates as measured in both victim surveys and police statistics have all risen since 1981." The murder rate is higher in the U.S. than in England and Wales, but the U.S. rate has been declining, while the rate in England and Wales has remained unchanged.2
Ironically, it is because Japan's crime rates are rising despite its severe gun control laws, that that country is trying to lead a call for worldwide gun control through the United Nations. But, as law professor David Kopel noted in a work voted a 1992 Book of the Year award by the American Society of Criminology, Japanese-style gun control requires measures that could not be imposed in the United States.
In Japan, citizens have fewer protections of the right to privacy, and fewer rights for criminal suspects, than in the United States. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is more than 99.9%.
The Tokyo Bar Association has said that the Japanese police routinely engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions. Amnesty International, Kopel noted, calls Japan's police custody system "a flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles."
But, Kopel wrote, "Without abrogating the Bill of Rights, America could not give its police and prosecutors extensive Japanese-style powers to enforce severe gun laws effectively. Unlike the Japanese, Americans are not already secure from crime, and are therefore less likely to surrender their personal means of defense. More importantly, America has no tradition like Japan's of civil disarmament, of submission to authority, or of trust in the government." Thus, "Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. . . . It postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government and society fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos."3
Perhaps Don. B. Kates, a noted civil rights lawyer, best put the international comparison myth in perspective, writing, "In any society, truly violent people are only a small minority. We know that law-abiding citizens do not commit violent crimes. We know that criminals will neither obey gun bans nor refrain from turning other deadly instruments to their nefarious purposes. . . . In sum, peaceful societies do not need general gun bans and violent societies do not benefit from them."4
1. Richard A. I. Munday, Most Armed & Most Free?, (Brightlingsea, Essex: Piedmont Publishing, 1996).
2. Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and in Wales, 1981-1996," Oct. 1998.
3. David Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America adopt the gun controls of other democracies? (Buffalo, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1992), pp. 431-32.
4. "Gun Laws Around the World: Do They Work?," The American Guardian, Oct., 1997.
Joe's Second Amendment Message Board
NRA-ILA Fact Sheet
Fables, Myths, and Other Tall Tales
FABLE: Foreign countries such as England and Japan have much
less crime than the U.S. because of their more severe gun laws.
Actually, crime rates are the same in Switzerland, Israel and Norway, where gun laws are relatively mild, as they are in England, Italy and Japan, where guns are almost entirely prohibited.
In Switzerland, most citizens are members of the national defense force and are issued fully-automatic rifles and ammunition, to be kept at home, ready to be put into use in a national emergency. Outside their formal military duties, the Swiss expend about 60 million rounds of ammunition with the guns each year, mostly for target practice. Crimes with the guns are virtually unheard of. By comparison, "Italy's gun law, 'the most restrictive in Europe,' had left her southern provinces alone with a thousand firearm murders a year, thirty times Switzerland's total."1
England annually has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before imposing its tough laws. Furthermore, "crime rates for robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft are higher in England (including Wales) than in the United States." And while U.S. crime rates have been declining significantly, the reverse is true in England and Wales.
According to a late 1998 study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, "For most U.S. crimes . . . the latest crime rates (1996) are the lowest recorded in the 16-year period from 1981 to 1996. By comparison, English crime rates as measured in both victim surveys and police statistics have all risen since 1981." The murder rate is higher in the U.S. than in England and Wales, but the U.S. rate has been declining, while the rate in England and Wales has remained unchanged.2
Ironically, it is because Japan's crime rates are rising despite its severe gun control laws, that that country is trying to lead a call for worldwide gun control through the United Nations. But, as law professor David Kopel noted in a work voted a 1992 Book of the Year award by the American Society of Criminology, Japanese-style gun control requires measures that could not be imposed in the United States.
In Japan, citizens have fewer protections of the right to privacy, and fewer rights for criminal suspects, than in the United States. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is more than 99.9%.
The Tokyo Bar Association has said that the Japanese police routinely engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions. Amnesty International, Kopel noted, calls Japan's police custody system "a flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles."
But, Kopel wrote, "Without abrogating the Bill of Rights, America could not give its police and prosecutors extensive Japanese-style powers to enforce severe gun laws effectively. Unlike the Japanese, Americans are not already secure from crime, and are therefore less likely to surrender their personal means of defense. More importantly, America has no tradition like Japan's of civil disarmament, of submission to authority, or of trust in the government." Thus, "Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. . . . It postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government and society fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos."3
Perhaps Don. B. Kates, a noted civil rights lawyer, best put the international comparison myth in perspective, writing, "In any society, truly violent people are only a small minority. We know that law-abiding citizens do not commit violent crimes. We know that criminals will neither obey gun bans nor refrain from turning other deadly instruments to their nefarious purposes. . . . In sum, peaceful societies do not need general gun bans and violent societies do not benefit from them."4
1. Richard A. I. Munday, Most Armed & Most Free?, (Brightlingsea, Essex: Piedmont Publishing, 1996).
2. Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and in Wales, 1981-1996," Oct. 1998.
3. David Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America adopt the gun controls of other democracies? (Buffalo, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1992), pp. 431-32.
4. "Gun Laws Around the World: Do They Work?," The American Guardian, Oct., 1997.
Joe's Second Amendment Message Board
For a great article on German Gun laws and shooting and hunting in Germany:
www.gunshop.com/moses1.htm
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
www.gunshop.com/moses1.htm
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
Geoff,
That is indeed a GREAT article!
I left Germany in 1976 after being stationed in Niedersachsen for some five years. (It was great duty!) Between 1960 and 1976 I spent a total of eleven years in Germany but my "remote" assignment was the best.
At the local Schuetzenhaus, no handgun greater than 9mm was permitted to be fired. You could have it, fondle it, brag about it, etc. - but don't shoot it. "Too loud!"
Of the fifty or so club members that I met, not one, not even one, was a common man. They ALL were wealthy and had to be to afford all the fees, dues, licenses, registrations, mandatory meetings, etc. to own a gun.
Firearms were kept at the Schuetzenhaus. I do not know if that was "most" or "all" guns. I was told that it was mandatory - that gun owners were not permitted to take their guns home. I don't know if that was a requirement of the law or of the club.
The joke in the club was to be told by two speakers, (A & B):
A: "If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford a gun!"
B: "Ah, yes. That is true. But if you can afford a gun you can no longer afford the Porsche!"
The joke always got lots of laughs, but I laughed only out of politeness to my hosts and my sponsor.
Yes, my sponsor. After all, not just anyone should be able to join the club! (And without club sponsorship, I was told you could not own a gun.)
I don't know how much of what I saw and heard was accurate. I do know that I was astounded and somewhat frightened that any group of citizens would be so happy to be so restricted.
"Ordnung muss sein!" (There must be order!) was taken to an extreme that I found offensive.
Although I had been against gun control all my life, it was during this five year period that I became militant.
Thanks again for the article. I recommend TFLers read that article as a look into our future...
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 25, 1999).]
That is indeed a GREAT article!
I left Germany in 1976 after being stationed in Niedersachsen for some five years. (It was great duty!) Between 1960 and 1976 I spent a total of eleven years in Germany but my "remote" assignment was the best.
At the local Schuetzenhaus, no handgun greater than 9mm was permitted to be fired. You could have it, fondle it, brag about it, etc. - but don't shoot it. "Too loud!"
Of the fifty or so club members that I met, not one, not even one, was a common man. They ALL were wealthy and had to be to afford all the fees, dues, licenses, registrations, mandatory meetings, etc. to own a gun.
Firearms were kept at the Schuetzenhaus. I do not know if that was "most" or "all" guns. I was told that it was mandatory - that gun owners were not permitted to take their guns home. I don't know if that was a requirement of the law or of the club.
The joke in the club was to be told by two speakers, (A & B):
A: "If you can afford a Porsche, you can afford a gun!"
B: "Ah, yes. That is true. But if you can afford a gun you can no longer afford the Porsche!"
The joke always got lots of laughs, but I laughed only out of politeness to my hosts and my sponsor.
Yes, my sponsor. After all, not just anyone should be able to join the club! (And without club sponsorship, I was told you could not own a gun.)
I don't know how much of what I saw and heard was accurate. I do know that I was astounded and somewhat frightened that any group of citizens would be so happy to be so restricted.
"Ordnung muss sein!" (There must be order!) was taken to an extreme that I found offensive.
Although I had been against gun control all my life, it was during this five year period that I became militant.
Thanks again for the article. I recommend TFLers read that article as a look into our future...
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 25, 1999).]
Gale McMillan
Member In Memoriam
Being in the arms business I have had the necessity to travel the world both the third world and what you would call the real world. In the third world in places like Jordan and Pakistan there is no laws governing weapons It is not uncommon to see a man with a sub machinegun slung over his shoulder and a Browning High Power in a shoulder holster. In Countries like Finland ,Sweden and Norway guns are plentiful although I can't say what local laws cover their use. In Germany I ship rifles to a large sporting goods company and I know the general public has some pretty strict laws pertaining their use. You must go to school to be current in their use and you must belong to shooting or hunt clubs but I believe that If you clear all these requirements it isn't too difficult to own. In the UK it is an evolving situation. Since I started hunting there they have outlawed pump shotguns, Semi Auto shot guns, all rifle larger than .22 in semi auto and pump action. And all hand guns. In Mexico its zero! Having a loose round on you will wind up with you looking through bars. Yet the Banditos have Uzis .As it is in most of central and South America the wealthy can do what they want In the Pacific rim countries Japan you can own shot guns and rifle but no pistols. I don't know what the citizen has to do to be able to buy one but we ship to two big gun shops in Tokyo. In most of the orient The people are more interested in making a living than owning guns. The ones I know I don't think it ever entered their minds to own a gun .I was on an airline from Zurich to Karachi and was sitting next to a Thailand business man. We got to talking and he found that I was in the Arms business and he said that he had just bought a new pistol in Switzerland and as he stood up to get his brief case he asked me If I wanted to see it. I almost tackled him to keep him from dragging it out right there on the airplane. Needles to say it scared hell out of me. Come to find out he was flying on a diplomatic passport.
El Chimango Pete
New member
Argentina - A 'Legitimate User License' (ie owner or 'borrower') has to be obtained before having a gun, from a registry that is officially under the Defense Ministry but is pretty autonomous. Two classes: "Civilian" for #rimfire rifles #revolvers under 38 #pistols under .380/9mm #shotguns barrel over 24" - Then "Civilian - Conditional" (used to be 'war' but name changed - conditional do what? Damnedifiknow) centerfire rifles, pistols and revolvers of those calibers or over, shotguns under 24"Bl ... you get the idea.
License is granted on certifying # clean record from judiciary, no felonies etc. # age over 18 # fixed address (where guns are kept) # medical certificate that not actually crazy # certificate from firerms instructor that applicant knows how to handle gun safely (and recently, that is aware of self defense laws and restrictions - as an instructor, it has botherred us that they'd make us 'co-responsible' for mis-use) #'legitimate means of income' (paycheck receipt would do).
Paper lasts five years then application has to be done over. The two classes differed somewhat, in that the latter was more stringent and issued by the registry itself (the former issued by local police). lately they are tending to converge.
Each gun then has its own certificate, issued on sale or transfer, together with a sort of munitions ration-book (up to 1000 rounds a year - but reloading isn't controlled -yet). In Buenos Aires, the gun's certificate can take about three days - here and other places outside the capital, up to twenty - so we have a de-facto waiting period.
The significance of this system is that its very efficently centralized in a central data bank, state of the art computers (and yes, Y2K proofed) - and that the ATF is often over here as well as our people over there - and it may serve as a model...
There are curently nearly 800 thousand 'legitimate users' in the data bank - It works. We have it and live with it - and its in a weird way our (feeble) protection against the 'confiscators' in that the goons are the only ones guaranteed out of the system - so using the registry would be truly a 'unilaterral disarmament'. May not cut much ice but its all we got.
Our neighbor Brasil is right now in the position of its registry being used just so - Their Pres. Cardoso (on his return from a trip to the UK) and henchmen pushing for 'ban laws' - probably because his political position is weak and elections are coming up.
They are also due here too - so this time next year I may have a different tale to tell.
The system here has been in force for little more than 25 years - came about when after some years of 'liberation armies' in the late sixties, captured terrorists were pardon by a newly elected government (after military rule) - went on a rampage and shortly after the armed forces took over yet again. I mention that because recently the Clinton admin pardoned the Puerto Rican FALN (?) - perhaps much more dangerous for 'public safety' than any catalogue of 'gun laws'
Peter Knight.
License is granted on certifying # clean record from judiciary, no felonies etc. # age over 18 # fixed address (where guns are kept) # medical certificate that not actually crazy # certificate from firerms instructor that applicant knows how to handle gun safely (and recently, that is aware of self defense laws and restrictions - as an instructor, it has botherred us that they'd make us 'co-responsible' for mis-use) #'legitimate means of income' (paycheck receipt would do).
Paper lasts five years then application has to be done over. The two classes differed somewhat, in that the latter was more stringent and issued by the registry itself (the former issued by local police). lately they are tending to converge.
Each gun then has its own certificate, issued on sale or transfer, together with a sort of munitions ration-book (up to 1000 rounds a year - but reloading isn't controlled -yet). In Buenos Aires, the gun's certificate can take about three days - here and other places outside the capital, up to twenty - so we have a de-facto waiting period.
The significance of this system is that its very efficently centralized in a central data bank, state of the art computers (and yes, Y2K proofed) - and that the ATF is often over here as well as our people over there - and it may serve as a model...
There are curently nearly 800 thousand 'legitimate users' in the data bank - It works. We have it and live with it - and its in a weird way our (feeble) protection against the 'confiscators' in that the goons are the only ones guaranteed out of the system - so using the registry would be truly a 'unilaterral disarmament'. May not cut much ice but its all we got.
Our neighbor Brasil is right now in the position of its registry being used just so - Their Pres. Cardoso (on his return from a trip to the UK) and henchmen pushing for 'ban laws' - probably because his political position is weak and elections are coming up.
They are also due here too - so this time next year I may have a different tale to tell.
The system here has been in force for little more than 25 years - came about when after some years of 'liberation armies' in the late sixties, captured terrorists were pardon by a newly elected government (after military rule) - went on a rampage and shortly after the armed forces took over yet again. I mention that because recently the Clinton admin pardoned the Puerto Rican FALN (?) - perhaps much more dangerous for 'public safety' than any catalogue of 'gun laws'
Peter Knight.
Jeff Thomas
New member
nebob, check out this link at the Independence Institute: www.i2i.org/CrimJust.htm#Foreign Gun Control (please look a little more than halfway down the page - just can't get this link to work properly).
Dave Kopel certainly seems to be an expert on the subject. I just bought his book, 'The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy : Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies' (cited above, I note - thanks nralife).
Good luck with your research. By the way - he is always looking for others to help him with his work. Contact him at the Independence Institute - he may just put you to work.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited September 26, 1999).]
Dave Kopel certainly seems to be an expert on the subject. I just bought his book, 'The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy : Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies' (cited above, I note - thanks nralife).
Good luck with your research. By the way - he is always looking for others to help him with his work. Contact him at the Independence Institute - he may just put you to work.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited September 26, 1999).]
Dennis:
I left Germany in 1976 also, after three years in the 8th ID in a Tank Battalion at Baumholder. Duty was lousy but when I had time off I had a ball. Never did get a chance to go hunting but some of the NCO's I knew were members of a hunting club and I heard some stories about their exploits. A fellow LT won a lottery to take a class A Hirsch but I left before he got it.
Germans have some interesting customs, like giving the deer a symbolic "Last bite" and wearing a twig with the animals blood in their hats after the kill.
As to the US having the same laws, it will never happen. The Germans are more adept at running things efficiently, the Govt in this country will screw it up big time. It seems that the Germans test you on everything before you can do it.
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
I left Germany in 1976 also, after three years in the 8th ID in a Tank Battalion at Baumholder. Duty was lousy but when I had time off I had a ball. Never did get a chance to go hunting but some of the NCO's I knew were members of a hunting club and I heard some stories about their exploits. A fellow LT won a lottery to take a class A Hirsch but I left before he got it.
Germans have some interesting customs, like giving the deer a symbolic "Last bite" and wearing a twig with the animals blood in their hats after the kill.
As to the US having the same laws, it will never happen. The Germans are more adept at running things efficiently, the Govt in this country will screw it up big time. It seems that the Germans test you on everything before you can do it.
Geoff Ross
------------------
Damn!...I need more practice!
Pi$$ off the left, register to vote.
My dad emigrated from Germany in the late 20s. He once told me that in Germany, "everything is forbidden unless specifically allowed. Over here, everything is allowed unless specifically forbidden". Seems like things ahven't changed there, but that we are getting more like them.
------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
Nebob:
Gun Laws in Philippines is strict also.
It is true that there are many loose firearms, but owning Legal one is not that easy.
Firstly, someone must have a good income as employee or professional or have a business.
Every Filipino Citizen is allowed to own one handgun up to 9MM caliber, one .22 rifle and one shotgun of any gauge. There are few private individuals who legally owning M16 but they are the ones who are not yet covered by the new laws they have it already. But may be few years from now, they will all revoke licenses of those owning high powered rifles.
To those who are member of Gun Clubs can be qualified to own two Handgun of a .45 Caliber with the recommendation of the Club President to the "Chief of Firearms and Explosives Division". The Gun Club and the individual who purchased a considered highpowered pistol are co-owner of the firearms.
A person can get a licensed after passing the different criteria imposed by the "Phil National Police (PNP)", but it is not a guarranty that the owner can obtain a "Permit to Carry Firearm Outside Residence (PTCFOR)" even he has a licensed.
To summarize the requirements they are as follows:
1. Latest Income tax return
2. Police Clearance
3. Fiscal Clearance
4. Certificate of employment and latest pay slip if private individual.
5. NBI clearance like the FBI - this is a must to have it when applying for a permit to carry outside residence. Not needed if for licensing only for Home Defense.
6. Updated Professional ID issued by the Professional Regulation Commission if you are practicing your profession as Licensed Engineer, Doctor or Accountant.
7. Release Document from Military or Police if you are out from the service already.
* Only those that has enough money who can possess a firearms in Phils as it is very expensive item in my country especially if foreign made. Unlike in US or perhaps and in other countries, you can buy one by a few bucks of dollars and when you have already a pistol worth 1000 dollars in US perhaps it is one of the top firearms already in the industry.
I observe also that the private sector has a bigger share percentage who can afford much to buy the best pistol.
If you have deregatory records, even you have enough money you cannot legally own a hand gun or any firearms in my country. That is the truth. But if they can do it, that is another story and small percentage only.
To be caught of illegal possesion of firearms also in PI has a very severe punishment. But it was reduced now to more than 5 yrs Imprisonment.
The above are not actually laws but requirements and directives of the PNP how to legally owned a firearms. At least I highlighted of the basic requirements.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited September 28, 1999).]
Gun Laws in Philippines is strict also.
It is true that there are many loose firearms, but owning Legal one is not that easy.
Firstly, someone must have a good income as employee or professional or have a business.
Every Filipino Citizen is allowed to own one handgun up to 9MM caliber, one .22 rifle and one shotgun of any gauge. There are few private individuals who legally owning M16 but they are the ones who are not yet covered by the new laws they have it already. But may be few years from now, they will all revoke licenses of those owning high powered rifles.
To those who are member of Gun Clubs can be qualified to own two Handgun of a .45 Caliber with the recommendation of the Club President to the "Chief of Firearms and Explosives Division". The Gun Club and the individual who purchased a considered highpowered pistol are co-owner of the firearms.
A person can get a licensed after passing the different criteria imposed by the "Phil National Police (PNP)", but it is not a guarranty that the owner can obtain a "Permit to Carry Firearm Outside Residence (PTCFOR)" even he has a licensed.
To summarize the requirements they are as follows:
1. Latest Income tax return
2. Police Clearance
3. Fiscal Clearance
4. Certificate of employment and latest pay slip if private individual.
5. NBI clearance like the FBI - this is a must to have it when applying for a permit to carry outside residence. Not needed if for licensing only for Home Defense.
6. Updated Professional ID issued by the Professional Regulation Commission if you are practicing your profession as Licensed Engineer, Doctor or Accountant.
7. Release Document from Military or Police if you are out from the service already.
* Only those that has enough money who can possess a firearms in Phils as it is very expensive item in my country especially if foreign made. Unlike in US or perhaps and in other countries, you can buy one by a few bucks of dollars and when you have already a pistol worth 1000 dollars in US perhaps it is one of the top firearms already in the industry.
I observe also that the private sector has a bigger share percentage who can afford much to buy the best pistol.
If you have deregatory records, even you have enough money you cannot legally own a hand gun or any firearms in my country. That is the truth. But if they can do it, that is another story and small percentage only.
To be caught of illegal possesion of firearms also in PI has a very severe punishment. But it was reduced now to more than 5 yrs Imprisonment.
The above are not actually laws but requirements and directives of the PNP how to legally owned a firearms. At least I highlighted of the basic requirements.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited September 28, 1999).]