Gun design question-why no auto ejecting magazines or auto slide drop?

[BitterTait]

Random question that I've wondered about for a long time:

After your gun is empty, the first thing you generally do is drop the magazine so you can insert a new one

After you insert a new magazine, the first thing you generally do is drop the slide/bolt.

Outside of the Garand and some vague memories of a pistol that was rejected in favor of the 1911 and faded into obscurity, I know of no gun that does either of these without manual intervention.

Any compelling reason why this isn't a feature in combat arms? Other than the obvious-mechanical complexity, more things to fail, not wanting to automatically drop a magazine to prevent damaging it, I'd think there'd be at least one or two guns with those features as a marketing gimmick in these tacticool times.

 

[hardworker]

The Garand used a clip, not a detachable magazine like most everything made these days. I've never seen a gun kick the mag out automatically, and don't see a reason for it. Seems like a good way to break or lose one.

 

[TXAZ]

Mechanically itis not a difficult task. Several questions come to mind as to why not: If it drops out automatically after the last round, will it get lost? Will that hack off the owner or will they be able to find it, or see it as a way for a company to automatically make more money (ill will). Is some state going to outlaw it as another assault weapon feature (ala Cali's "non-easily" removable magazines)?

And there are a fair number of handguns and rifles that easily eject the magazine, so it might not be sucha big deal.

 

[Catchabullet]

agree to disagree...

I don't like the idea of the an auto ejecting magazine. the pistol locks the slide when you have an empty magazine and collecting the magazine later would be a hassle. Revolvers don't spit out moon clips when finished, why fix what's not broken...?

 

[Don H]

In the heat of an engagement, the mag is automatically ejected, the shooter, eyes fixed on his sights, doesn't see it but the shootee does, resulting in a less than optimal outcome.

 

[Jim Watson]

I've wondered about the auto-drop mag myself, but...
It would be a mechanical complication that you might not want in a military or police weapon. IPSC shooters avoid going empty and IDPA would likely disallow it as a "competition only" modification.

On the other end, a number of gun's slides will close when a magazine is seated hard. Many IDPA shooters come to depend on it. It speeds the reload... if the slide doesn't close without picking up a round, as sometimes happens.

 

[Chris_B]

magazines being a fairly critical part of a semi-auto pistol working correctly, I'd hate to have dependable mags and then foul one or more of them up because they auto-ejected onto the floor

 

[Nitesites]

Kind of like the slide going into battery automatically with fresh mag idea. Insert mag, mechanics automatically release the slide stop, go...

 

[Sefner]

Some pistols, H&K pistols come to mind, will close the slide when a fresh mag is inserted by design.

My GI 1911 will do it if you smash the mag in hard enough. This is not by design.

 

[Nitesites]

Cool. Is it by design (implying reliable function) or a side-effect (implying hit-or-miss)? I can do it with my Glocks but only if I slam 'em.

Added : Uh, never mind...lol. Glimpsed over your response and failed to see the "by design" remark...

 

[BlueTrain]

I did not know that any HK pistols automatically closed the slide when a new magazine was inserted but I think a couple of older designs, undoubtedly German, had that characteristic, maybe the Beretta 1934/1935 pistol did, too.

Everything was a new feature once upon a time and it was a while before automatic hold-open devices were considered desirable on firearms, not just pistols, even though they're not so standard on hunting rifles. For that matter, detachable magazines and clip loading were new at one time. Some pistols were clip loading, too, and did not have detachable box magazines, though they were always the exception. In theory, it still seems like a good idea but I suppose it has its drawbacks. I realize that stripping a clip into a magazine can be tricky but given all the problems reported here with pistol magazines, it is still a good idea.

But an automatically dropping magazine? Why, you'd have to have a big rubber pad on the base of the magazine to keep it from being damaged and who'd want something like that?

 

[Skans]

I'm all for the auto-ejecting magazine idea, but only when they figure out how to add an auto-inserting magazine feature as well. If I'm going to be lazy about it I don't want to have to still do half the work myself!

 

[Sefner]

Thinking about this some more, I shot a Walther PPK once that did not have a slide lock. The slide would lock back when the mag was empty but there was no way to manually lock the slide open.

 

[carguychris]

Some pistols, H&K pistols come to mind, will close the slide when a fresh mag is inserted by design.

The S&W M&P is designed to do this if you insert the magazine with enough force. Ironically, I've seen a number of threads in which people complain about this feature.

...maybe the Beretta 1934/1935 pistol did, too.

Well, kinda.

The safety on these pistols doubles as a slide stop. I've been told by a gun store clerk who's somewhat of an expert on older European firearms that the designers intended it to work like this:

• Slide locks open
• Place pistol on-safe, thereby locking slide back
• Eject magazine and insert a fresh one
• Release safety, thereby releasing slide and chambering a round
• Resume firing or place pistol back on-safe and reholster

However, the safety on these guns is located above the trigger guard and has to be rotated 180° to engage or release it; it was apparently designed for mutants with extra joints in their index fingers or unusually long thumbs. In reality, the manual of arms goes something like this:

• Slide locks open
• Eject magazine, slide slams shut
• Insert a fresh mag and rack slide to chamber a round
• Resume firing or place pistol back on-safe and reholster

 

[carguychris]

Thinking about this some more, I shot a Walther PPK once that did not have a slide lock. The slide would lock back when the mag was empty but there was no way to manually lock the slide open.

FWIW this is the way all standard Walther PP-series .32ACP and .380ACP pistols work.

 

[Sefner]

FWIW this is the way all standard Walther PP-series .32ACP and .380ACP pistols work.

That makes sense. The one I shot was from the 60s or 70s from Germany, so I didn't want to assume that they were still that way today. Thanks for the info!

 

[Copper01]

But an automatically dropping magazine? Why, you'd have to have a big rubber pad on the base of the magazine to keep it from being damaged and who'd want something like that?

I'm not necessarily picking on you just the first quotable sentence I remembered.

When I first started reading this thread I was in agreement. Throwing mags on the ground is a bad thing (repeated often from one of mentors). Then I got to thinking about it. The only real run and gun competition I have shot is Pro-AM. I don't ever remember worrying a bit about my mags during a stage. Just hit the mag release, ram a new one home and back to sight acquisition. After the stage was over, round up mags, inspect and blow out any dust/dirt.

So I don't think I would be against a firearm with automatic ejecting magazines. Guess it just depends on the use.

 

[BlueTrain]

The comment was made as a joke, in case you didn't catch it first time around. Competitive pistol shooters commonly use rubber bumpers for two reasons. One to prevent damage when it's dropped and presumably make it easier to push the magazine home. Some pistols come standard with rather oversized magazine bases, though they're not all rubber. Plastic is more common because that's what things seem to be made from any more.

In any case, a Luger-style magazine release, usually oversized for competition (along with the slide lock and safety), is plenty fast. Practically automatic, which is what I say about how easy it is to use a manual transmission in a vehicle, provided you don't have to double-clutch it.

I am sitting here trying to think of other applications where "automatic ejecting" has been used and all I can think of are Hotchkiss-type machine guns that used a metal feed strip. In one side, out the other. It doesn't sound that great but it was used for a long time all around the world. It worked better than a certain Japanese machine gun that was fed with standard five-round rifle clips placed in a hopper. That sounded better than it worked.

 

[dogtown tom]

"Drop free" magazines became popular in the '70's with the advent of shooting competitions that gave an advantage to those who could perform rapid magazine changes.

Many military orders for handguns pre 1970 preferred a design that required two hands to remove the mag (one gripping the pistol, the other removing the mag) and placed the mag catch at the bottom of the grip frame. If the design was "drop free", then you would see things like lanyard loops on magazines. Woe be the soldier that loses his mag in the field.

The FN Browning Hi Power was not originally designed to allow mags drop free. The magazine disconnect feature prevented a complete drop and if removed mags will drop free. FN devised mags with a "mousetrap" spring that will fling a Hi Power mag with power.

Even the original Glock magazines were designed to not drop free unless completely empty, and sometimes even then didn't drop.

 

[gyvel]

The Mauser models 1910, 1914, 1934 and HSc all had an automatic slide releases when a magazine was inserted. In addition, the HK4 has the same feature, mainly because the same engineers involved in the HSc worked on the design of the HK4. There were also a couple of Webley & Scott automatics with that feature, notably the .455 and .38 autos.

While not exactly an auto close when a magazine is inserted, the design of the 1896 Mauser pistol automatically allows the bolt to slam forward and load a cartridge after the magazine has been fully charged with a stripper clip and the clip is withdrawn.

Somebody mentioned a Beretta, but the Beretta slides were held open by the follower and closed when the mag was removed.

Personally, I think the "automatic close" feature on an auto loader is one of the most dangerous features ever as it doesn't take much to cause an AD.