Gun Control Online Debate with Europeans

M

Musketeer

New member
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=88415#post88415

The forum is one for a WWII computer game and the thread is one discussing gun control. It is interesting to see the input from the several Europeans. My latest thread on how the nany state mentality spurs on such foolish ideas as gun control and that the majority of them are in for a surprise when all those Muslim students start burning their beautiful neighborhoods with no way to stop them is sure to get a response.

It is worth reading just to get the perspective of those from the other side.
 
An interesting thread with a view to a few EU members thought process re: Gun Control. When in Roma... and all.

For argument's sake, let us say that tomorrow all guns magically disappeared from the face of the earth. (Yes, I've read Kopel's piece)

Would that stop "Gun Crime"? Certainly.

Would that stop "Violent Crime"? Hardly.

I know this. You know this. We ALL know this. EU's, Canadians, US, UK, etc. We KNOW this. Knives, rocks, sticks, bats, dogs, hammers, fists and feet, etc. of those who are inclined towards evil deeds would be used against the weak and their enemies, as they have been used for eons. (Well, millenia at least).

Allow your European friends their mindset and let them go in their blissful peace. I'm sure their neighborhoods will not burn down any more in the future than they have in the past... (did I say that?)

Meanwhile, back home at the fort, as a wise old Roman once said, "Si vis pacem, para bellum".
 
Maybe we should round up everyone and amputate their hands and feet. That way not only could we not use weapons, we couldn't hit, kick or poke each other, either.:rolleyes:
 
But we could head butt eachother! How about something along the line of the Matrix? (minus all the violence and guns) Total mind/body control.
 
Gun Crime? Car crime? Knife crime?

Gun's don't commit crimes...criminals do. Sorry to nit pick, but this phrase is part of a semantic game that the left is using to brainwash the ignorant through soundbites. It is really sad to see it being tossed around on a pro-rights forum.

As responsible citizens, I think we need to point out the fallacies and folly in pro-control arguments and slogans.

And remember "Guns don't kill people...abortion does."

Shooter429
 
Reading the title of this thread made me chuckle. Engage in a gun control debate with Europeans? Why??
We have one thing that makes us different from them: The Second Amendment. They don't have that over there so there's no reason to debate the subject with them.
 
I went through 1 page of it, and couldn't stand anymore. You made an imbecile of yourself when you brought up the muslims, and lost the respect of everyone else on that board. Your evidence that the muslims are going to attack france is that some muslims rioted at political cartoons, some committed terrorist acts, etc? Well, ted bundy, buffalo bill, the unibomber, were all white Americans. So were the white Americans who put the japanese in camps during WWII, the white Americans who ran underground organized crime networks during prohibition, etc. With this history of violence of some americans, does that mean the Americans in Canada are going to attack and imprison the people?

You needed to emphasize the numbers. Show the evidence like kennesaw, GA, Switzerland, vs D.C., the spikes in crime rates in australia and britain after gun legislation, etc and that we have much lower overall violent crime rates than countries like the UK and Canada. Tell them about the work of Gary Kleck, how criminologists will go from anti-gun to pro-gun, but never the other way around. Essentially every study done has shown that guns and crime have a low correlation, emphasize that social factors like poverty, upbringing, opportunity and environment have a much stronger influence. You had a wealth of logical information to work with.

We don't need to come across as ignorant, inbred trailer trash. ####, half of America thinks gun owners are like that anyways, and gun owners will never be accepted even among our own mainstream Americans as long as this image prevails. And you already know how europe views us. It disgusts me, and my frustration is even stronger when I see people acting in a way to reinforce these stereotypes. I'm going to go to sleep.
 
I note the pie in the face the voters of Brazil gave to their Socialist President Lula when he called a referendum on banning ownership of firearms
and then the rejection by first the people of France then the people of the
Netherlands of the EU Constitution. I heard an interview on the BBC World
Service with a Dutchwoman who said she thought having referendums was
better than always letting the politicians decide and I note that most European countries are pseudo democracies that do not have our tradition of
basically unfettered free speech. A recent article in AR on the subject of global gun control cited the Brazilian rejection and the article quotes one anti
as saying "Don't trust direct democracy".
 
We don't need to come across as ignorant, inbred trailer trash. ####, half of America thinks gun owners are like that anyways, and gun owners will never be accepted even among our own mainstream Americans as long as this image prevails. And you already know how europe views us. It disgusts me, and my frustration is even stronger when I see people acting in a way to reinforce these stereotypes. I'm going to go to sleep.
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Sorry you do not get it. The problem is they do not believe their comfortable existence can ever be put into civil disorder where they may have to face violence with only themselves to depend on. Quite frankly the biggest possibility for major civil unrest in the Europe, France especially, at present is with the Muslim community. That is the truth, although some refuse to realize it. What better way to show them the need to be armed than point out to them the most likely large scale problem the nations of Europe are going to face? They will not believe our numbers and studies, perhaps they will believe the television footage of rioting Muslim youths setting fires across France.

Your evidence that the muslims are going to attack france is that some muslims rioted at political cartoons, some committed terrorist acts, etc?
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Some, that is a good one. How about THOUSANDS. Did you happen to notice the widespread riots that engulfed France last year? They were clearly organized, as the French government admitted. What is uncomfortable to say is that those doing so were in their Muslim community. Who set off the bombs in London and Madrid? Who was planting bombs on railway tracks in France? (FYI that was going on last year. None were detonated and the authorities found them all. It was reported, but kept as quiet as possible)

I deal with Europeans every day, working for a European owned company. Many of them put on refined and enlightenned airs but get them to have a couple beers or wines (depends where you are) and they will let you know the Muslim situation scares the hell out of them. It is easy to attack the messenger but even if they do not do so they have to admit to themselves that there is something bad going on that most certainly could get worse.

The odds of a civil breakdown in a major European city due to an uprising of primarily Muslims is far higher than me telling them a Hurricane may smack into Paris. You have to relate to something they know, understand, and at least internally can acknowledge may happen. I did that and drew fire for it as I knew I would. I know this though, when the riots start up again in ernest those I had that discussion with are going to remember my words...
 
the rejection by first the people of France then the people of the
Netherlands of the EU Constitution. I heard an interview on the BBC World
Service with a Dutchwoman who said she thought having referendums was
better than always letting the politicians decide and I note that most European countries are pseudo democracies that do not have our tradition of
basically unfettered free speech.
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I was thrilled to see it. One of the main issues was the open immigration of Muslims through Turkey into the EU, as well as other economic and legal issues. As I said, many Europeans are very worried about Muslims flooding into their nations through Turkey. Notice it went right through in nations like Germany where there was no referendum. In Germany as long as the government's leaders decide it was good it was a done deal, regardless of the people.

Most of my contacts are in Switzerland, with some in France and Germany. The Swiss have the right attitutde; "Stay the hell out of our mountains!" They see what is going on in Germany and France and want no part of it. What is more the Swiss have referendums on almost everything so there is no chance of them joining the EU. Hell, they only decided to join the UN about a year ago, and it was a very divided decision!
 
If you have significant evidence to back up that claim about the muslims, present it, and in a dignified manner. Don't just go off of what you saw in the 5 o'clock news and expect to be accepted saying things like that without doing the research and having some strong, strong proof. You're not going to convince anyone that way, and instead just further damage the public image of gun owners. That's exactly what the anti-gunners are doing, and why those people have the twisted perception about guns. They see reports of thousands of gun crimes committed on the news, but never see reports of a father and son bonding over a hunting trip, the potential attacks that were thwarted by law abiding gun owners, etc. If you've got proof, provide a link, or some other hard evidence. It damages gun owner's image worldwide when you make comments like that in a debate about gun rights. I was all with you until I saw that terrible blunder. Yeah, thousands of Muslims rioted. But thousands out of hundreds of millions or billions, is practically nothing. Thousands of Americans also rioted during woodstock, the WTC here in seattle, the zoot suits riots and the list is a long one. We don't have a clean history either. But we here in the states know that doesn't mean all Americans are violent, or that we're war-mongering asses like the rest of the world thinks. You can't play the same on the muslims unless you've got proof.
 
The two big holes in the earth that entombed a couple thousand people near where I live are plenty of proof. The open acknowledgement that the riots in France were being perpetrated by groups of Muslim youth is my proof (check CNN and other sources if your memory fails you). The parties who bombed railways in London and Madrid are my proof.

Are all Muslims causing the problems, no. But many of the problems seem to be coming from their community... We all know it, some people just feel a little more righteous denying it.

Those who are dead set against gun ownership do not care about FBI crime stats or the numbers put forward by Dr. Lott and others.

If you want to sway people you must identify the EMOTIONAL reason that motivates them. For the anti's the motivation is FEAR. They need to understand what it is they shoudl really fear though.
 
My cultural background has a major influence on my way of thinking, especially concerning "Gun Control", which I consider "People Control", and, for the most, part, I'm against governemental sanctions limiting my access to this freedom. I'd like to think that a lot of us here would agree... to a point.

With no flames intended and not being European, but trying desperately to remember things learned from the past... by naming one particular group, be they African Slaves brought to America, Jews, Muslims or Native American Indians, American Japanese, etc. some of whom might, or might not, be responsible for acts against (to coin a phrase) the "greater communities well being" (whatever that means), are you not setting up conditions for yet another "People Control" movement if these persons cannot be armed?

Granted, today in the news, religion might be THE if not A major factor, but, so might race, unemployment, envy of others who have more, education or lack thereof or just "their" cultural background. Or they could just be "in the way" of progress or a drag on the local economy.

As an exercise (in futility?) consider this thread re: EU "Gun Control" looking at it (G.C.) as "People Control by the State", knowing that there is not a darned thing you or I can do to change their day to day, knowing that while some of those who have discussed this appear to be highly intelligent, their "norm", their cultural background is not bothered in the least when their "State" mandates and implements yet another measure of "Control".

Or is it?

Objects, like Guns? Guns have no feelings, no emotions. They cannot vote. Their Control is good, indeed, needed. This is the argument of some.

Control of Certain People? Hopefully, every man, everywhere, is made a little uneasy when the "State" requires control of "Certain People". Here in the US, we all know that Madison, et al, were forced to include a limitation to the newly written rules our gov't was to follow. We still ended up with Slavery and the Native American problems, the resolution of which, we CANNOT forget.

This time, maybe it's not Gun Owners. Maybe it's (yet again) a small group of Angry Young Idealists from another cultural background.

Hard to pick them out of a crowd.

So let's punish everyone in that group for the acts of a few?

Maybe. Maybe Not. Been There. Done That. It can sucketh... largely.
 
This time, maybe it's not Gun Owners. Maybe it's (yet again) a small group of Angry Young Idealists from another cultural background.

Hard to pick them out of a crowd.
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Especially when it seems even the moderates of that crowd provide aid and concealment to the extremisits. Not all, but an awful lot of them...

Either way I have not advocated rounding up Muslims or limiting their freedoms. At no time have I suggested "people control" andI would challenge anyone to find that I stated as such in any of my writings. I simply am saying that the population of law abiding citizens must have the right to defend themselves effectively in cases of civil breakdown and disorder. It just appears the most likely group to cause that in much of Europe at present are Muslim extremists working within the larger Muslim community.
 
Those aren't proof at all. If that stuff counts as proof, then those europeans also had "proof" that Americans were going to attack Canada.

You needed an emotional fear response? Well, that emotional fear response you were trying to invoke by saying the muslims were going to attack, did it work? No. You made a laughingstock of yourself.
And now many of the people who were on the fence probably got bolstered onto the side of the antis.

When you argue for gun rights, you have to show them in a way they understand, yes. But you do that by relating crime to society, and not the tools inside. They'd understand that. I've debated with many anti's before, and converted a lot of them. That isn't the way to do it. The majority of mainstream America, much less the world, sees average muslim as far more respectable, and less of a menace to society than the average gun owner. You're not going to illicit much thought by bringing up subjects that make you come across as ignorant and racist.
 
Where have you been for the past decade? Do you not even notice what is going on? For crying out loud, people are so scared that you got Border's refusing to carry an issue of a regular magazine for them because it may offend some Muslims. Comedy Central censorred a South Park episode because they were afraid of offending Muslims.

This was not done because these companies feared getting hate mail. They did it because they feared members of that fine upstanding community would do what they have become famous for, burn things and attack people. I have an email from Borders' customer relations giving fear of violence as their reason for not carrying a magazine's latest issue.

This stuff is real. People are not frightenned of being attacked by Jews or Christians for saying something offensive, only followers of Islam create that fear. It is not racist to point out the truth but it is ignorant to deny it.
 
You still think they're scared? If they were so scared, why did they laugh at the idea? Why did they laugh at you for bringing it up? It's because they're not. Nobody is scared of them but rednecks.

BTW, fox also censored a family guy episode about Jews. Was it because they were afraid of a Jewish attack on America? No. All this "evidence" you provide is circumstantial, and meaningless.

I saw a muslim or middle eastern man the other day, turban and everything, at the store. If someone told me he was going to jump me for holding a magazine with a hot, mostly nude girl on the cover, I would've laughed in his face too. You don't understand the liberal, or even mainstream American mindset. It was this lack of social grace that cost you their respect, and the argument was lost the moment you brought it up. It will always prevent gun ownership from becoming a part of popular American culture as long as it persists.

The current image of gun owners throughout our own country, is of blue collar, poor, ignorant/racist white trash living out in the boonies. Basically, the bottom tier of america's social structure. We desperately need this to change, if we have any hope of maintaining our gun rights in the long term, we need to be accepted by the rest of America, including the leftists which largely run the media. You can't do this by acting in a way that reinforces that image. When you argue with anti-gunners, you have to do it in a way they understand.
 
Nobody is scared of them but rednecks.
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It seems to me that you are sensitive to cultural labels and preconceptions of beliefs and ideas, or the general degradation of a cultural group, as am I. I bet you would never say the "N" word, nor would I. Yet you have no problem throwing out the word "REDNECK" to describe the mindset, and to generalize the culture, of a large number of Americans. A word that is derogatory in the same vein as the "N" word.
To you ,sir, and also to most liberals I say "HYPOCRIT"
 
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