Why is it that when the subject of gun control comes up in most forums or chats, there is always some geek spouting off big words and pompas hohum. This garbage is always to the premis that if you arnt in favor of gun control, you are an uneducated dumba$$. I submit that that is 90% of what is wrong w/ the world(and this country in particular)today. People put too much faith in the ultra educated. Dont get me wrong, there is alot to be said for education. OTOH it seems some of these freaks, in squeezing in thier PHD, have pushed out the little common sense they had.....if they had any to start with. Although many good ideas come from some highly educated people, many also come from "regular" folks. I wonder if these geeks ever take into concideration all the destructive things that have been brought to us via Phds who, in their infinite wisdom (maybe wisdom isnt a good word),think it wont be dangerous or they can control it, only to be dead wrong and we have to pay for it. Frankly, I think it takes the ultimate dumba$$ to educate our a$$es out of existance.
Gun control and the highly educated.
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Ed Brunner
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As I see it the problem is not with the PhD
it is with the elitist mindset of the particular PhD. There are people at all levels who would like to substitute their judgment for yours on how to run your life.
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Better days to be,
Ed
it is with the elitist mindset of the particular PhD. There are people at all levels who would like to substitute their judgment for yours on how to run your life.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Many of the "academic elite" are trapped in a world of theories. They rarely understand the practical implications of their ideas. Some people will hide behind their "education" simply because they have nothing else of value to offer in their arguments. "I sound smarter than you so therefore I must be." Ask them how they feel about other issues besides gun control... it's fun!
Well, IMHO, it's like this. The entire academic system, from kindergarten through PhD level, is involved in a ceratain quantity of brainwashing, pure and simple.
First, there is religion, but let's not get into that, it ain't on topic.
But next, very much on topic, there is the subject of the devilishly evil (ohmygod) GUN!! The entirety of advanced academia is focused on Politically Correct dogma, which as per the media, your Congressman, or any number of others is SO much smarter than stupid you, how dare you question their conclusions, you extreme dumba$$, just lay down and give in! Like Germany in the '30s, hey, look how well it worked out for them!
If you think (!!), you can reason a lot more than was ever actually LEARNED (as opposed to memorized for a test) by most PhDs. Most pro- or anti-gun arguments are really simple to figure out if you can think. If you've been brainwashed on the subject, not so. Figure out which among our numbers are unable to understand logic on the subject. You'll find they are spread among high-school dropouts right up to PhDs, the environment they've been in has more to do with that than their educational level per se.
[This message has been edited by Larry P. (edited August 29, 1999).]
First, there is religion, but let's not get into that, it ain't on topic.
But next, very much on topic, there is the subject of the devilishly evil (ohmygod) GUN!! The entirety of advanced academia is focused on Politically Correct dogma, which as per the media, your Congressman, or any number of others is SO much smarter than stupid you, how dare you question their conclusions, you extreme dumba$$, just lay down and give in! Like Germany in the '30s, hey, look how well it worked out for them!
If you think (!!), you can reason a lot more than was ever actually LEARNED (as opposed to memorized for a test) by most PhDs. Most pro- or anti-gun arguments are really simple to figure out if you can think. If you've been brainwashed on the subject, not so. Figure out which among our numbers are unable to understand logic on the subject. You'll find they are spread among high-school dropouts right up to PhDs, the environment they've been in has more to do with that than their educational level per se.
[This message has been edited by Larry P. (edited August 29, 1999).]
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Well, maybe with respect to PhDs and the highly educated, you might consider the difference between a PhD in Engineering, and a Phd is one of the Liberal Arts. Or a field biologist with a PhD versus a sociologist...
Face it. The average Conservative, regardless of education, is not an activist. He just wants to do his own thing and be left alone. As a generalization, the average Liberal is always fretting about some idealized, perfect world, and will spout off all manners of ideas as to how to achieve it.
As I've noted before--generalizing, of course--as to choices of fields of education, those disposed toward Conservatism are more likely to go to the hard sciences. Those who tend to major in Journalism are more likely to be Liberals.
By and large, the "newsies" are more comfortable, socially, with Liberals. So, guess who they tend to listen to and believe when the subject is guns?
The problem is less an issue of "how much education" than it is the personality which is more likely to be involved in government in general; or employed in the news bidness, or eager to "help make the world safer for the children".
FWIW, Art
Face it. The average Conservative, regardless of education, is not an activist. He just wants to do his own thing and be left alone. As a generalization, the average Liberal is always fretting about some idealized, perfect world, and will spout off all manners of ideas as to how to achieve it.
As I've noted before--generalizing, of course--as to choices of fields of education, those disposed toward Conservatism are more likely to go to the hard sciences. Those who tend to major in Journalism are more likely to be Liberals.
By and large, the "newsies" are more comfortable, socially, with Liberals. So, guess who they tend to listen to and believe when the subject is guns?
The problem is less an issue of "how much education" than it is the personality which is more likely to be involved in government in general; or employed in the news bidness, or eager to "help make the world safer for the children".
FWIW, Art
Destructo6
New member
I don't see that elite attitude so much in those who hold a degree (or degrees) in the hard sciences; that is math, chemistry, engineering, etc.
More of those who hold degrees in "the arts" seem to think that they were taught the "correct" way to think and that they know better. Considering that a fair number of liberal arts fields are influenced by figures such as Marx, it's not surprising.
More of those who hold degrees in "the arts" seem to think that they were taught the "correct" way to think and that they know better. Considering that a fair number of liberal arts fields are influenced by figures such as Marx, it's not surprising.
Robert Foote
New member
Someone once commented that the only advantage to an education was that it allowed you to detect when a man was talking nonsense. By that standard, we have an awful lot of uneducated people--at all levels-- around screwing up our republic. (Don't get me started on the public education 'system'--takes me a couple of hours to settle down again...)
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As I expected, some really interesting insights into the " I hate guns, you're stupid" phenomenon....thanks.
Right now, I am in college. My major is Anthropology, a " Liberal Science" grrrrrrrrrr. It makes my skin crawl to see "Liberal Science Program" on my school paperwork.lol
Larry, you wont hurt my feelings if you bring up religion.....
RKBA! m16
Right now, I am in college. My major is Anthropology, a " Liberal Science" grrrrrrrrrr. It makes my skin crawl to see "Liberal Science Program" on my school paperwork.lol
Larry, you wont hurt my feelings if you bring up religion.....
RKBA! m16
m16 - I don't think the level of someones education determines their stand on the RKBA. Like you, I think it is their lack of both common sense and the ability to think about situations in the real world. When I think back to my high school class, I can easily predict who would be on the anti side and who would be on the RKBA side. My point being that the trait is ingrained early in their education, it is usually only nurtured during their higher education by educators that recognize the right candidates.
As for PhDs, there are quite a few here on TFL, you might be surprised how many. I agree with Destructo6 that those in the physical sciences seem less susceptible to the propaganda.
As for PhDs, there are quite a few here on TFL, you might be surprised how many. I agree with Destructo6 that those in the physical sciences seem less susceptible to the propaganda.
Bruce from West Oz
New member
I don't think it's the doctorate per se. What I believe is that it's a mindset (good American word) that comes as a result of many years spent in academia. I have a (very) close friend, who is a PhD in education -- but a more open, honest man you could never find.
But I've seen peers go from Bachelors to Masters to PhD and become real a***holes along the way. Their mind becomes blinkered to anything other than the "theoretical" base to which they are attached. By their reasoning, anything can be solved/sorted/explained in purely academic terms.
As someone else said -- they no longer live in the "real" world. Their wife even pays the bills because that no longer matters.
I used to hanker for an academic life -- but the more I studied, the less inclined I became to that view
Bruce
DipTch; THC; BEd
But I've seen peers go from Bachelors to Masters to PhD and become real a***holes along the way. Their mind becomes blinkered to anything other than the "theoretical" base to which they are attached. By their reasoning, anything can be solved/sorted/explained in purely academic terms.
As someone else said -- they no longer live in the "real" world. Their wife even pays the bills because that no longer matters.
I used to hanker for an academic life -- but the more I studied, the less inclined I became to that view
Bruce
DipTch; THC; BEd
Carl,
Nice to see you here and there. We fight a battle for hearts and minds. The chief issue, I feel, is a societal one.
We have two major segments of society that need to be abrogated:
one, an elitist group that feel it is their responsibility to dictate what everyone else should do, and
two, a group that feels it is their right to receive the public dole. Who cares if if means giving up autonomy? This self-imposed slavery is in many ways worse than physical slavery ever was, as it degrades the soul even more. America will never be right until we can find a way to do away with these two self-propagating groups.
Nice to see you here and there. We fight a battle for hearts and minds. The chief issue, I feel, is a societal one.
We have two major segments of society that need to be abrogated:
one, an elitist group that feel it is their responsibility to dictate what everyone else should do, and
two, a group that feels it is their right to receive the public dole. Who cares if if means giving up autonomy? This self-imposed slavery is in many ways worse than physical slavery ever was, as it degrades the soul even more. America will never be right until we can find a way to do away with these two self-propagating groups.
What I perceive as the problem with "higher" education is that it consumes your life, and that you move into a bubble of a little world, and all must be as it should. I experienced that kind of thing in getting my Master's, and as others have pointed out, what you study makes a big difference. I studied Agricultural and Biological engineering (a euphamism for Farm & Stuff Engineering). Things went wrong all the time, and reality kept you in line. All engineers go through the frustration of realizing not all theory becomes practice. Life just isn't that peachy.
Now enter the "liberal arts" (dramatic pause). They deal with things that can't blow up in the face when theory breaks down. They sit in an Ivory Tower applying their beer goggles to our reality and say "it should be so" ignoring that for whatever reason, it isn't. They don't get down in the trenches and battle test their theories, they let the rest of the world do that. I met on PhD student when I was at college that admitted she was so far in her own world, that she didn't know about the Gulf War until the fall of '92, long after it was over! Now that's isolated.
Marc's Lesson of the Day: "Reality Check 101" should be required for all majors.
Ironically enough, I dealt with these same frustrations this weekend, visiting some friends still in college. I'm really close to one of them, she's like a sister. But she has been out of the country for a while, and she was not around when I opened my eyes last January to see what state of freedom we actually live in, and our rights are being curtailed and infringed left and right. We somehow stumbled on to the topic of the guns I own where she expressed her displeasure, and how they are bad, and she doesn't think I should have them. And I tried to tell her that it's not about plinking, and just having a good time, that they are necessary for protection from bad guys. I told her the police are not there all the time, and that they make mistakes like everyone, and I showed her how dangerous it is to rely on them. The Police are great, and serve us well, but they are not everywhere. And she understood. But she insisted that permits are necessary, for all guns -to separate the Marc's from the Buford's. I knew I was in trouble then. She would not see the gov't as a potential tyranny. And I said the only thing I thought would help; I told her what was happening with the Waco case, what the Fed's had done. I told her that I was afraid of the gov't, cause they might come after me like that. I grew sad, cause I saw in her eyes that she felt I was a paranoid gun-owning freakk. Man, that hurt. I was lumped into a huge category of paranoid freaks by one of my best friends. The conversation ended at that point, as others entered the room, and then I had to go.
I had a 4 hour drive to mull this over in my head. And all I could conclude is that due to the liberal bubble that Cornell is, I couldn't expect her to understand. I'll just have to show her more facts, let her make up her own mind. If she does not become a proponent of the second amendment, at least I hope she'll see the light.
Umm...wow, I think that was my first babble session. I've seen all the TFL greats do it at some point or another
...could it be that I just went through a rite of passage on TFL? 
Now enter the "liberal arts" (dramatic pause). They deal with things that can't blow up in the face when theory breaks down. They sit in an Ivory Tower applying their beer goggles to our reality and say "it should be so" ignoring that for whatever reason, it isn't. They don't get down in the trenches and battle test their theories, they let the rest of the world do that. I met on PhD student when I was at college that admitted she was so far in her own world, that she didn't know about the Gulf War until the fall of '92, long after it was over! Now that's isolated.
Marc's Lesson of the Day: "Reality Check 101" should be required for all majors.
Ironically enough, I dealt with these same frustrations this weekend, visiting some friends still in college. I'm really close to one of them, she's like a sister. But she has been out of the country for a while, and she was not around when I opened my eyes last January to see what state of freedom we actually live in, and our rights are being curtailed and infringed left and right. We somehow stumbled on to the topic of the guns I own where she expressed her displeasure, and how they are bad, and she doesn't think I should have them. And I tried to tell her that it's not about plinking, and just having a good time, that they are necessary for protection from bad guys. I told her the police are not there all the time, and that they make mistakes like everyone, and I showed her how dangerous it is to rely on them. The Police are great, and serve us well, but they are not everywhere. And she understood. But she insisted that permits are necessary, for all guns -to separate the Marc's from the Buford's. I knew I was in trouble then. She would not see the gov't as a potential tyranny. And I said the only thing I thought would help; I told her what was happening with the Waco case, what the Fed's had done. I told her that I was afraid of the gov't, cause they might come after me like that. I grew sad, cause I saw in her eyes that she felt I was a paranoid gun-owning freakk. Man, that hurt. I was lumped into a huge category of paranoid freaks by one of my best friends. The conversation ended at that point, as others entered the room, and then I had to go.
I had a 4 hour drive to mull this over in my head. And all I could conclude is that due to the liberal bubble that Cornell is, I couldn't expect her to understand. I'll just have to show her more facts, let her make up her own mind. If she does not become a proponent of the second amendment, at least I hope she'll see the light.
Umm...wow, I think that was my first babble session. I've seen all the TFL greats do it at some point or another
...could it be that I just went through a rite of passage on TFL? Othermarc,
From one of the baddest babblers, "Welcome! Sit down and relax while I give this forty minute welcoming speech!"
Relax, already! It's a joke!
Congratulations (and thank you as a fellow gun owner) for trying to open a closed mind. (Perhaps a severely distracted mind?) Ya done good!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 30, 1999).]
From one of the baddest babblers, "Welcome! Sit down and relax while I give this forty minute welcoming speech!"
Relax, already! It's a joke!
Congratulations (and thank you as a fellow gun owner) for trying to open a closed mind. (Perhaps a severely distracted mind?) Ya done good!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 30, 1999).]
FWIW, I don't think it's a matter of having a degree or not.
I never went to college. Most of my users have Masters and PhDs in various disciplines (granted, mostly CompSci). This is by far the most pro-gun group of folks I've ever worked with.
I believe it's because computer geeks in general have a priceless ability to use logic, something that's sorely lacking in the majority of society. We see cause-and-effect every single day, and can apply it to non-computer areas.
Most academics live in theory, as was noted above. They have not they foggiest what happens in the real world. They say, "Well, blah-blah SHOULD happen," and cheerfully ignore reality, until reality bites their collective arse.
Bottom line, it's not having a degree or having attended some frou-frou kollitch that counts. It's the ability to use one's brain in an effective manner.
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"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper
I never went to college. Most of my users have Masters and PhDs in various disciplines (granted, mostly CompSci). This is by far the most pro-gun group of folks I've ever worked with.
I believe it's because computer geeks in general have a priceless ability to use logic, something that's sorely lacking in the majority of society. We see cause-and-effect every single day, and can apply it to non-computer areas.
Most academics live in theory, as was noted above. They have not they foggiest what happens in the real world. They say, "Well, blah-blah SHOULD happen," and cheerfully ignore reality, until reality bites their collective arse.
Bottom line, it's not having a degree or having attended some frou-frou kollitch that counts. It's the ability to use one's brain in an effective manner.
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"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper
Paul Revere
New member
Not sure anyone mentioned the obvious. That part of the reason some academians slant to the left when they walk and when they talk is due to the particular school they've attended.
Most leftist ideologies spawn from other leftist's jargon. The spewed rhetoric from one instructor to his/her students becomes a self-perpetuation of the language spoken by leftists, liberals, and elitists all the way up the food chain. Most of these thinkers believe their thoughts have superior content, and therefore must spread their words like a common cold.
In addtion, leftist school administrators tend to tenure other liberals and leftist thinkers. Students looking for mentorship, leadership, and recognition from these liberal academians become trapped in a web of ideology that sounds plausible. This transfer of knowledge results in generations of idealist thinkers.
Most leftist ideologies spawn from other leftist's jargon. The spewed rhetoric from one instructor to his/her students becomes a self-perpetuation of the language spoken by leftists, liberals, and elitists all the way up the food chain. Most of these thinkers believe their thoughts have superior content, and therefore must spread their words like a common cold.
In addtion, leftist school administrators tend to tenure other liberals and leftist thinkers. Students looking for mentorship, leadership, and recognition from these liberal academians become trapped in a web of ideology that sounds plausible. This transfer of knowledge results in generations of idealist thinkers.
Paul, excellent point. The ironic thing is that all academic types are supposed to rely on logic in search of truth. This is supposed to supercede desires to please your mentor, or your group of colleagues. Alas, they are only human and divert from logic and facts to succumb to the desire to be included in the group. And these people, in general are the ones that grow up to be the "leaders" of the country.
Janet Reno went to my alma mater, need I say more?
(Cornell's not all bad, they offer pistol, rifle, and shotgun classes, some of the most difficult classes to get into since they are very popular)
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Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
Janet Reno went to my alma mater, need I say more?
(Cornell's not all bad, they offer pistol, rifle, and shotgun classes, some of the most difficult classes to get into since they are very popular)
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Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
My personal review of this tendency of the highly educated to espouse fatuous and unsupportable opinions indicates that there is a fair amount of intellectual dishonesty among career academicians. In other words, "the conventional wisdom, love it or leave it."
An flagrant example occured when a learned non-academician noticed that the Egyptian Sphinx had been weathered by heavy rainfall, which according to climatologists, had not occurred in the Sahara since 10,000 years ago. The observation was confirmed by a PhD Geologist. Indeed, the phenomenon was easily observable by anyone, once it was pointed out. However, the Egyptologists ignored the findings because it conflicted with their chronology (mostly fabricated) of ancient Egyptian civilization. It would have placed the erection of the Sphinx at a time before the rise of the Egyptian culture, thereby making the established Egyptologists' work meaningless. Rather than consider that, they ignored the findings.
How is this related to guns? Well, I like Colt 45 Automatics and AR15s and always wondered if Napoleon really shot the nose off the Sphinx...
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Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle
An flagrant example occured when a learned non-academician noticed that the Egyptian Sphinx had been weathered by heavy rainfall, which according to climatologists, had not occurred in the Sahara since 10,000 years ago. The observation was confirmed by a PhD Geologist. Indeed, the phenomenon was easily observable by anyone, once it was pointed out. However, the Egyptologists ignored the findings because it conflicted with their chronology (mostly fabricated) of ancient Egyptian civilization. It would have placed the erection of the Sphinx at a time before the rise of the Egyptian culture, thereby making the established Egyptologists' work meaningless. Rather than consider that, they ignored the findings.
How is this related to guns? Well, I like Colt 45 Automatics and AR15s and always wondered if Napoleon really shot the nose off the Sphinx...
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Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle
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