Group size for mauser 98

N

NateKirk

New member
Hey all, a question for all you mauser fans out there; how big is your typical group size at 100 yards? Your best guess, accounting for human error and such. I took my turkish mauser to the range on saturday and though the group is ok ( tight enough to kill a person or deer) it could be smaller.
I'm wondering just what the accuracy potential is for a stock mauser surplus rifle ( Or any WW1/ 2 era rifle)
 
I had a "Standard Modell" from 1935 in 7mm that would shoot 2" with good hand loads. I have a friend that has an 8MM per war KAR that shoots about the same.
 
I had a Peruvian 7X57 that shot about 2", a K98 that shot about the same, several that shot worse, and one that shot about 1 1/2".
 
Too many variables to make even a guess. Those rifles have seen usage from very little to extensive with corrosive ammo in combat conditions where immediate cleaning was not possible. In addition, they might have used as clubs or spears.
My opinion is anything under 6" @ 100 yards considering the origin and sights would be "average".
I've sold several through the shop while I was in business and kept two that have excellent bores. One has been cut back to 21" and the other is a one-off with a tensioned barrel using an aluminum barrel sleeve. Both are MOA shooters with decent factory ammo and less using handloads. Even using mil-surp ammo gives the occasional 2MOA @ 250-300 yards(using 4x scopes).
 
This is a target shot at 100 yards with my K98. Shot with open sights from a rest. These are two 5-shot groups. First group was low, adjusted sight and fired second (higher) group.



 
The German test fire requirements listed in Laws "Backbone of the Wehrmacht Vol2" say that at 100 meters, 3 out of five shots need to be in a 8X14CM rectangle, and all five need to be within a 12 CM circle. That works out to about 4 1/3" at 100 yards

k98_acceptance.jpg


I have 3 K98s, all of them beat that easily.
 
IIRC, the U.S. maximum for the M16/M4 is 4 inches at 100 yards, the same as for the M14, M1, M1903, M1898 Krag, M1873, M1864, M1861, and M1855. I guess military minds all over tend to think that figure is about right. Obviously, some of those rifles will shoot better, some much better, with select ammunition, but 4" at 100 yards or the metric equivalent with the issue ball ammo was and is the general standard.

Jim
 
I have 3 Mausers, all 8mm. The German k98k and Persian can shoot better than 2" out 100 yards. The beat-up Yugo is doing no better than 8". I have been working on it for a long while. Next I'm going to cut the barrel a few inches short and recut the crown.

Edit: all groups were shot with iron sight on bench rest.


-TL
 
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I have Mausers, if I decide to build something I take one of the Mausers to the range and test fire it, if it does not shoot, I have a candidate for the new build.

I took a last ditch to the range, the stock had shoe polish finish, the action and barrel had hot dip water repellent, and tin, it had tin for rings.

About the time I decided the bullets were tumbling another shooter cam over thinking the rifle was very accurate. What I thought were tumbling bullets were 3 hole clover leafs. Now I am waiting for someone to tell me one of my rifles is not worth anything because one of the serial numbers does not match the other three serial numbers.

F. Guffey
 
typical mauser groups

Spanish 1893 in 7x57 (1931 mfg) = 2-1/2" @ 100 yds
Yugo 24/47 in 8x57 (1924-32 mfg) = 2-3/4" @ 100yds
German 98k in 8x57 (1941 mfg) = 3-1/2" @ 100 yds w/dark, dirty, pitted bore
Yugo M48a in 8x57 (1948-52 mfg) = 4" @ 100 yds
Argentine Modelo 1909 in 7.65x53 (1911 mfg) 2-1/4" @ 100 yds

my best is a 24/47 sporter with an Interarms Mauser 4x40 fixed scope,
and produces 1" to 1-1/4" groups all day long, it prefers Nosler 180 grn Ballistic tips:D

all the others were done with military iron sights, from the bench on sandbags, and my handloads,
I'm sure with more load development they could all be reduced :D
 
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emcon confirmed what I was recalling, that military standards called for about 4" at 100 yards (or meters).

These are military rifles, designed with durability and reliability in mind, not match grade accuracy. A gun that is too finely fitted with very close tolerances meant for top accuracy may not go bang after crawling around in the mud, or muck or sand all day on the battlefield. And 4" is certainly good enough for the intended target.

All you guys shooting 2" groups with as issued M98s- my hat is off to you. You are far superior to me in shooting skill. And you have much better rifles than do I.
 
Better than 2" groups only after fair amount of monkeying and shooting from bench rest, and using optimized hand loads. Everything is as ideal as it can possibly be.

But I limit my "monkeying" to techniques that marksmen back in the time could afford to to, the only exception being glass bedding. The rifles are kept in military configuration otherwise.

My standard is better than 2” with 12 shots continuous slow fire. 2 flyers are taken out and the rest 10 shots will be used to calculate the group size.

When a rifle meets the standard consistently, work is done. I will continue to work in it otherwise.
 
One thing about Mauser rifles, even though they were mass produced, there was quite a bit of hand fitting going on still. (which is why there are serial numbers on every part, keep them together).

There is a good article here:

http://www.mausershooters.org/k98k/SC_tips2.html
"Bedding a Mauser action
I found this in "Mauser Bolt action Rifles" by Ludwig Olson, third edition: "PROPER BEDDING OF GERMAN CARBINE 98k (from official German Ordinance document)."
Click to expand...

Doing that on a couple RC K98k got them in the 4" range with surplus ammo, considerably smaller with handloading.

Example, same rifle, same day, using a scout scope and handloads worked up in a different rifle:
k98_ar42.jpg


This is a different rifle, a RC 1940 "42" code when I was doing load development:

8mm_load_dev.jpg


On the other hand, if you get one that hasn't been monkeyed with since it was in the hands of a military armorer, in this case a IDF .308 conversion, sometimes you hit the jackpot:

idf_k98_xm80.jpg

The flyer was called, dude next to me had a muzzle brake, and made me flinch right as it broke (Dammit). Only 50 yards, but factory ammo and iron sights, but can't complain about that.

Took one sighter shot to get the windage, then went 4 for 4 on the 400 yard steel. I have also posted this video a couple times,
http://youtu.be/xWOePGiaBcM

Love that old rifle.
 
I put a 40X scope on a $50 1903 Turkish Mauser with handloaded 200 gr Match Kings I shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100m.
The first 4 shots were 1/2" and there was a some disturbance at the range that delayed the 5th shot. The chrono was low 2600s.

Later in 2004 I shot two groups in a row with a hot barrel.. 5 shot groups at 100meter with that rifle and they were both 1.5". Same load.

In 2006 with the 220 gr Sierra hunting bullet and hot loads, this rifle again with a lot of other hunting candidate rifles, went to the range. It shot a 1.5" 5 shot group at 50 yards. The primers were falling out. The chrono was in the high 2600 range.
 
I doubt Mauser (or Luger) military firearms were assembled with selective fitting of several parts and test fired with each parts suite until some accuracy standard was met. Instead, parts were probably selected that did fit and enable the firearm to be assembled quickly and operate properly. The only precise fit was the bolt to ensure chamber headspace was acceptable. The major parts were then numbered to associate with the others. Then possibly test fired for accuracy and if one didn't pass, it would be repaired. If the arm was later repaired in company with others, keeping an arms number matched parts together ensured they'd go back together quick, safe and ensure reliable functioning.

I'm not aware of any reference stating German arms factories assembled parts suites for best accuracy. If any did, I'd sure like to see a reference to it.
 
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Instead, parts were probably selected that did fit and enable the firearm to be assembled quickly and operate properly. The only precise fit was the bolt to ensure chamber headspace was acceptable. The major parts were then numbered to associate with the others. Then possibly test fired for accuracy and if one didn't pass, it would be repaired. If the arm was later repaired in company with others, keeping an arms number matched parts together ensured they'd go back together quick, safe and ensure reliable functioning.
Click to expand...

Right, but for new components this wouldn't be that difficult. Does the bayonet lug clear the barrel? is there clearance between the top of the barrel and the front band? Ship it.

I'm not aware of any reference stating German arms factories assembled parts suites for best accuracy. If any did, I'd sure like to see a reference to it.
Click to expand...

The only reference I see is secondhand, as cited above. I do not own that book, and I don't know the target audience for the "official German Ordinance document"

Maybe they did basic testing during assembly, and after test firing if it failed the admittedly loose accuracy requirements was sent for rework.
 
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