Ground Breaking Hyperbole by the LA Times

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Crash

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Yes the LA Times is at it again.

The meat of the article that raised my ire was in the editoral section and basicly stated that guns = pornography = vice.

The author, whose name I have forgotten, recounts the details of sneaking about to see a gun with his friend and tells of the thrill it gave him. Equating it to sneaking around to look at a dirty magazine.

He states also that only those that are weak and fearful give in to the vice to own a gun.

******Article Below*********

Thursday, September 23, 1999

When the Thrill Is Gone
By SHAWN HUBLER

I had a cousin when I was a child," a friend, an expert in human behavior, is saying. "One day we went to visit his family and he pulled me aside. He said, 'C'mere. I've got something to show you.' And he pulled me into his bedroom and said,'Look.' And he pulled out a gun." The friend's eyes narrow for emphasis, telling the story. He leans forward, a little furtively. He is in his 60s now, but some things stay with you: The sleek weight of the metal, the curve of the trigger, the bond of that secret, almost unspeakable feeling. "The experience," he said, "was exactly as if he'd shown me a dirty magazine." He tells the story--in this season of church shootings and hospital shootings and freeway shootings and alleged dirty cop shootings--by way of getting to a particular punch line. And to the extent that another word can be borne about firearms and those who abuse them, I believe that it's one of the most underreported aspects of the gun
debate:

"Guns," he said, "are a vice. Just like liquor or pornography or tobacco." They give people--even nice people--a kind of rush. And, with weapons,the more the person is interested in power and worried about weakness, the more intense that rush feels. This is one reason gun control continues to be an uphill battle, even in the face of relentless gun violence.

I share this take because I know the truth in it. I grew up around guns, in one of those oh-so-romanticized parts of the country where everyone hunts. The schools gave days off for deer and bear seasons; some boys didn't shave until they'd shot their first buck. Guns were all over, and whether it was a rifle or a shotgun or somebody's dad's pistol, the power of holding a loaded weapon for the first time always brought something out in people that would make them avert their eyes, or suddenly have to take aim at something invisible on the horizon, or blush and clear their throats. Later, they'd go out of their way to insist that they kept guns only because beef was expensive. Or, guns were an investment. Or, they were traditional." Or, dope fiends might break in. But the reasons, legitimate and less so, always came later, after the sense of power and relief and security had coursed through their systems. Just as the reasons not to quit smoking always come after that first, bracing jolt of nicotine.

This is the underbelly of the gun issue, and it doesn't get much exposure; the debate always hews nervously to the safe zone of the rationales. (Is the crime rate down because of guns or in spite of them? Are massacres in hospitals and churches really the price of forestalling a police state? Did the Founders intend an unconditional right to bear arms when they wrote the 2nd Amendment, or just the right to join the National Guard?) Unaddressed is the less comfy question, the one that cuts through to the modern pathology of guns:

Why--in a time of peace and plummeting crime rates and cheap beef and very few truly remote houses--have so many people armed themselves?

Never mind why a law written 200 years ago for colonial farmers would allow guns--why do people continue to crave the things? This is one of the safest, richest, most open democracies on the planet. Some 200 million guns are floating around in it. Why? What inner imperative are they addressing? What lust? What imagined inequality?

Why do gun owners' claims that they're defending the Constitution always sound so much like the protestations of those Playboy subscribers who "only buy it for the articles?" Why does it seem fitting that alcohol and tobacco should be grouped with firearms under the same federal regulatory agency? Why does the love-hate relationship between the NRA and law enforcement always bring the phrase "takes one to know one" to mind?
These are not idle questions. California now has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation, but no one will ever accuse it of cracking down too soon.
The arsenal is hip deep and--short of a repeal of the 2nd Amendment--it's hard to imagine a solution to the public health crisis that that arsenal has created unless the thrill of guns, like the thrill of bathhouse sex or drag racing or teen smoking, is seen for what it is.
And this fascination with guns is no mystery, really, though every shooting yields another round of speculation about "society" and "the reality of evil" and similar moral pretense. Guns hook those souls who are secretly afraid that they might be weak, and who despise weakness, and who can't feel right without something to quell that shame-soaked sense of being lesser. Guns are a vice, and vice is its own punishment.

[This message has been edited by Crash (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
Interesting. So what does it mean when I go to the, ahem, gentlemen's club with a discreetly-concealed gun on my hip, like I did last Thursday?

And I know some of you are just dying to ask: yes, one of the, ahem, showgirls asked if that was a gun in my pocket or was I just happy to see her. ;)

------------------
"America needs additional gun laws like a giraffe needs snow tires."
--Rabbi Mermelstein, JPFO
 
Gotta link?

Never mind, I found the essay. You can email Ms. Hubler to express your discontent at shawn.hubler@latimes.com

I'm sure she'd LOVE to hear from you all. I know *I'm* writing her even as I write this...


[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
I found the article and edited my original post.

Sounds like the author got picked on by all those beer swilling redneck country boys.
 
"the power of holding a loaded weapon for the first time always brought out something in people that would make them avert their eyes..." This lady is N. U. T. S. nuts. Nah, I wish she was; This is psychological warfare, no less; A form of "poisoning the well". She's trying to plant a notion in people's minds which will make them discount any rational evidence or arguments they're presented with by us. With the added benefit that the more we protest it isn't true, the more suspicious people might become.

As I recall it, the "power of holding a loaded weapon for the first time" didn't bring out ANYTHING in me; I hunted because it was something to do with my dad, not because I particularly enjoyed it at that age. I would have been just as happy to pick berries or build snowmen with him. (Heresy, I know.) Do you suppose it's because I started hunting with my dad long before puberty?

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
I just wrote the following email to ms. Hubler:

----------------------------

I must take strong exception to your portrayal of guns in this essay. Your opinions on this issue reflect that neo-politi-thought that we've all come to know as "politically correct". I have been around guns since age 12. I have never (as of this writing) shot/killed/threatened anyone with a gun (or with anything else, for that matter). As a matter of fact, Ted Kennedy has killed more people than I have....

I purchased my first rifle at age 18, and my first pistol at age 21. Some of my fondest memories of my teen years include walks through the woods, rifle in hand, looking for a challenging shoot. (not animals, just a difficult target.) I HAVE hunted on and off for several years, but can no longer find the time. Again, memories of the BEING THERE outweighed the shooting aspect of the experience, but I looked forward to getting that buck as well...

At one point I held concealed carry permits from three states, at least ONE of which (Oregon) has some of the most stringent licensing requirements in the country. I take my OBLIGATION under the 2nd Amendment very seriously, and have NEVER considered guns to be a "vice".

I LOVE the shooting sports, and find that I feel no shame at all talking about my hobby. I do not avert my eyes, and speak in "hushed" tones about various aspects of the sport and its tools. The fact that you grew up in an area where hunting/field sports are held in high regard is meaningless; it is OBVIOUS that YOU never experienced them for yourself, but rather judged in a harsh light those "neanderthals" who enjoyed them.

Your essay reflects the WORST in modern "media" today. You attempt to villify and criminalize via words a sport with which you have no familiarity, and whose tools you fear. Your attack demonstrates that you really do not understand the REAL gun problem in America: CRIMINALS and their BEHAVIOR. I'll tell you this: the VERY DAY that I see a gun JUMP OFF THE TABLE AND SHOOT SOMEONE, I'll become a LIFELONG anti-gunner.

But you know that this event will NEVER take place, because it's INTENT that helps or harms others. If you were about to be raped at knifepoint, and I happened to be nearby and shot the rapist, I'm quite certain that you would be DEEPLY grateful.

I choose to own guns because 1) I love to shoot, 2) I consider it an obligation to our country, 3) I elect to be able to defend myself and my family against criminal attack.

I feel certain that YOU would call 911, and PRAY that the police arrived in time to "save" you. Too bad that most police response time is 15-20 minutes. You'd be LONG DEAD by then. You also fail to understand that in the final analysis, private ownership of guns is what keeps us free from potential tyranny. When I was in the military, I took an oath to "support, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC... SO HELP ME GOD."

Though I am many years removed from military service, the oath did NOT express a time limit. I still consider it "in force". Also, while in the service, I was trained to shoot weapons. People like YOU would disarm me, even though my government thought me capable of using them properly. I find that to be EXTREME ARROGANCE on your part. YOU have NO RIGHT to villify ME for exercising my rights.

Remember this: in the 2nd Amendment, it CLEARLY states "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED." The words "the people" also appear in other amendments, most notably the FIRST, one that I'm sure you are familiar with.

I am PROUD to be an American, an ex-serviceman, and GUN OWNER. I do not consider my interests to be pornographic in any way, but YOUR treatment of people like me certainly DOES seem to be so.

Dennis Olson

--------------------------------

Think it'll matter to her? (I feel so "dirty" ;) for being a gun owner...)


[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
This quote appeared in an editorial that almost seems to be a response to the one above. This appeared in the LA Times on Saturday, Sept. 25. Go to www.latimes.com and use their search function entering the word sword.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"To ascribe an action to the possession of an item is to say that humans have no choice over their actions; that Mother Teresa would have become a mass murderer within minutes of touching an assault rifle"[/quote]

Here is the entire text of the editorial:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Swords Don’t Kill, People Do
By JAMES WINTERROTH

Seneca the Younger stated that "A sword is never a killer; it’s a tool in the killer’s hands." To ascribe an action to the possession of an item is to say that humans have no choice over their actions; that Mother Teresa would have become a mass murderer within minutes of touching an assault rifle. If we follow this
logic that the item, rather than the person, must be controlled then Urban Assault Vehicles, like the ones that crowd our freeways, should be banned. Surely they are just as capable of inflicting injuries on the population.

The antigun lobby frequently reminds us that England has a lower rate of homicide than the U.S. However, what isn’t mentioned is that robbery, assault, vehicle theft and burglaries are all higher in England.
Despite England’s recent enactment of even stricter gun control laws that include a total ban on handguns, its crime rate is rising while ours is falling. Nor do gun control advocates mention Switzerland, which
has a very high percentage of gun ownership and which issues fully automatic assault rifles to a portion of its citizenry, yet has a homicide rate that is a fraction of ours.

Israel, with an even lower homicide rate, allows civilians to check out Uzis and other firearms from police stations. This preponderance of gun ownership and possession resulted in one incident in which three
terrorists opened fire with AK-47s in a crowded Jerusalem neighborhood; they were stopped by gun-carrying Israeli civilians with the loss of only one Israeli life. Contrast this with the San Ysidro massacre in which James Huberty killed 21 persons and wounded 19 others, because there were no law-abiding armed citizens present to stop him.

The fact that the cities with the highest homicide rates (Chicago, Washington, D.C.) also have much stricter gun control laws than California is seldom mentioned. Likewise the fact that homicide decreased by 34% and robbery by 19% since a concealed carry law was implemented in Florida is not mentioned.

Thomas Jefferson clearly stated the reason for this when he included this quote from Italian Cesare Beccaria in his "Commonplace Book. "He wrote of laws that disarm: "Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

If a reduction in crime is truly desired, perhaps we should all join the NRA in calling for full enforcement of existing gun laws to keep criminals off the street. After all, nearly 75% of all violent crimes--murder, armed robbery, rape, assault--are committed by repeat offenders.

This program, implemented as Project Exile in Richmond, Va., resulted in a 65% drop in the number of homicides in one year.
- - - - -
James Winterroth, a Safety Engineer and an NRA Firearms Instructor, Lives in Carson[/quote]

That about sums up my feelings on the subject. Although I'm sure I could never write a letter as eloquent as Dennis' above, it is important to do so anyway and I will.
Great letter Dennis!!!


------------------
RKBA!

"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale



[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
Let's punch some holes in this:
1) A common trick to elevate a weak editorial or rhetorical position is to subliminally and artificially increase the credibility and authority of said position is to bring in "expert" opinion that can't be refuted or whose credentials can not be assessed...i.e this unnamed friend, an "expert in human behavior". For example, I have more knowledge than any of you in geo-politics because I am personal friends with the leader of a top industrialized nation....but just take my word for it, ok? ;)

2) a)Vice=an evil, degrading or immoral practice or conduct; a serious moral failing.
b)Wicked or evil conduct or habits; indulgence in degrading, depraved and corrupt practices......there are seven (7) definitions of "vice"....down around 6 and 7, do they become "a slight personal failing or foible; a blemish". The tone of Hubler's rhetoric does not seem to indicate he considers gun ownership a mild failing.
As well, no where does it say that receiving titillation or guilty pleasure is definitive of vice-like characteristics.

Further, the concept of "vice" is both subjective and culturally influenced and accepted. Hence, I can't consider anything a vice that is not accepted by my culture to indeed be a vice.....I can't make things into vices merely because I personally am against them.
Gluttony is considered a vice in our country...however in regions of Africa, pre-marital women are literally fattened up for months prior to their marriage...their duty is to get as fat as they can. The acceptable standard for women in this culture is to be obese when they get married. Hence, gluttony is not a vice.

Thus, I'm not guilty of the "vice" of gunownership since, I don't believe it is wrong, evil, degrading or corrupt and neither does my culture. Neither do I receive guilty pleasures nor titilation by looking, handling or using a firearm. (Now, when I fire up my John Deere, thats another story :))

*******************
My letter:

Mr. Hubler...
I read your editorial with much amusement. Your style of debate and rhetoric is woefully underdeveloped...the use of known intellectually weak and trite devices of artificially elevating credibility and authority to your premise by 1) citing an unnamed "expert in human behavior" who doesn't exist to be refuted or challenged; and 2) equating firearms with an underdeveloped sense or dubious grasp of one's sexuality.

As well, implying expertise in the topic of guns=vice because you personally felt the titillation merely demonstrates the dubious grasp of your own sexuallity and associated insecurities; not mine.

Further, your lack of knowledge concerning the Constitution and the Founders is glaring. The Founders were against a strong and centralized government, and the National Guard (federally controlled and funded) is representative of that fear...the National Guard is not the "militia" the Founders spoke of as it didn't exist for another 150 yrs or so.

As to "craving guns"...myself and other gun owners I personally know do not crave them...we have them like we have other tools and sports equipment. Where your judgement errs is when you challenge someone's right to own something legal and they become offended, you imply personal weakness on their part for resisting your autocracy and moral judgement.

Perhaps you should spend more time with your "friend"...and rather than discussing firearms, you should discuss yourself and your sexuality.

Thanks again for a most amusing albeit intellectually shallow and trite opinion.

Sincerely
Dr. Dona Cicci



------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
The BluesMan, I've met anti's that said they would have a propensity towards violence if they hada gun!!! Inconceivable to you and I, but damn, i'm glad they are anti if that's the way they feel. Scares me to think a hunk of metal could adversely affect a person like that.

Many would say religious peopl are "fearful and weak"..is Jesus/Abraham/Allah/Buddha (I could go on for a while) a vice to humans? 98% of the world doesn't think so. But yeah, I am afraid to be killed by a bad guy. Weak, well, I can't run very far for very long, but that might be my only weakness compared to the average population. Beats me, dude. Education. That's what these wackos need. They should learn a bit about what they decide to write about...but that would take personal responsibility. And if there's one thing a journalist lacks....

I'm out before I get in too deep.
 
I thought liberals loved pornography. Here is the text of my email to this writer:

As you might have guessed from all the other emails you received, you are extremely ignorant. Guns do indeed make up for weakness, as you have expressed - weakness that is much greater in you, a woman, than in men. You of all classes of people (women) ought to recognize the great equalizing power of guns. Ask women who have been raped why they now carry a gun. Ask Laura Schlesinger (sp?) why she's getting a gun. You can't legislate away evil, and evil will always persist. Ask yourself what you will do if confronted by a man intent on doing you harm, armed or not. As you noted in your article, crime has indeed fallen. But it has fallen in the 1990s precisely because of the liberalization of concealed carry laws. The available social science proves this unequivocally, and not a single anti-freedom, anti-self-defense colleague of yours has been able to poke even the slightest hole of refute in it (the studies), to date. You are correct that guns give a "thrill" to you, me, and everyone else - a feeling of power. This is a fact which is not in dispute. The reply is "so what"? The relevant question is "is the actual power to the gun-wielder which accompanies the feeling of power needed or warranted?". In today's society, no matter how modern, prosperous, or safe, the answer is "Yes". All 50 states recognize the right to use deadly force in self-defense. So, unless you're proposing that this principle of law and morality is wrong ipso facto (are you?), then how can you promote a position that takes away the instrument with which one can exercise this legal right. Nevermind the constitutional issue - what about YOUR right to defend yourself from a maniac? Good luck in obtaining a clue.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
The "sexuality" argument concerning firearms owners and their "vice" is not new. Every few years some self styled Freudian whips that argument out (oops!).
They use it to get a rise out of us (oops again), hoping that we'll respond in some overly macho fashion.
If they're lucky, they'll get some poor jerk to expose himself as a derringer equipped bozo who fantasizes about having a magnum.
Uh,... you know, I think I need to call my therapist.
Darn, the gun shop closed 30 minutes ago!
 
DC, you need someone to place a carnation in Hubler's lapel? ;)

------------------
"America needs additional gun laws like a giraffe needs snow tires."
--Rabbi Mermelstein, JPFO
 
Automobiles = Pornography

Dennis: Good evening. My name is Dennis and I like cars. I haven't driven a car in 39 days.

All: Good evening, Dennis

D: I always liked cars. The first car I remember really lusting after was an old Packard with great big running boards and a steamer trunk on the back!

All: Oooohhhh. (Shrinking in horror!)

D: And I was only 15 years old! (Sob)

Later, I moved up and lusted after more powerful cars. There was a 1955 Mercury convertible that gave me chills when I rode in it. Of course it was Christmastime in Pennsylvania so tried to blame it on the weather. But, thanks to AOL I know now it was that evil car.

All: Oooohhhh. (Shrinking in horror!)

D: Then in 1959 (sob) I took a really bad turn.

All: Tell us! Share with us! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: A 1959 Pontiac Bonneville. With those sexy little V-style tail fins.

All: Oooohhhh! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: And it had POWER! Gawd-almighty, smoking tires POWER! I was LOST, I tell you, LOST!!! It was that evil automobile! I lusted after it! I was weak! I'm so ashamed.

All: Oooohhhh! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: I joined the service. I figured those little jeeps were ugly enough I would be safe. But, "Oh, NO!" They sent me to Germany!

There were Mercedes of every ilk, big Opels with V-8 engines, sexy little Fiats and, worst of all, finally I lost all control (sob) and I became secretly involved with (sob, sob) a Porsche!

All: Oooohhhh! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: I was hooked. I was dependent on automobiles for transportation. I couldn't avoid them. Their shiny hubcaps. Their smooth, glossy paint. Their little fender skirts.

All: Oooohhhh! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: I knew I was in trouble, but I was powerless before their multiple headlights and chrome trim. Oh, and those cute little red fog lamps on their back end, er, back bumper.

One year in Germany I even attended a massive auto show in Frankfurt. It was there I met my final downfall.

It was a Ferrari! (SOB!)

All: Oooohhhh! (Shrinking in horror!)

D: And it belonged to someone else! I knew I had to....

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

This is the net censor! This thread has become too pornographic. Therefore, with regret, we must close this post.

We will not rest until the evil stench of sex-related automobiles is eliminated from our land and eventually from the entire world. We must do it, of course,
"for the children!"

(signed)
AOL Sensitivity Service (A.S.S.)
 
Hey, she emailed me back! I've got an email dialogue going on with her. I'll keep you posted. Quick, someone give that link to the website where the antis take the test on "who will obey the gun laws" & "what would you rather have to defend yourself?", etc. - by cornered rat, perhaps? Thanks.
 
Well, along these lines, of course you know that the largest phallic symbol on the road, the Chevy Suburban, has been one-upped by the Ford Excursion - something like 3 inches wider, 4 inches taller, and 5 inches longer than the Suburban. I guess Ford got really steamed by that commercial that said "Ford claims Expedition is the largest SUV in its class, because the Suburban is so big, it's in a class by itself. We couldn't have said it better ourselves."

Hmmmm, if I want one, does that mean I have a small penis? I guess if could just get that 44 Magnum, then I can stay in my little pickup without any envy. Actually, I've never done a side-by-side comparison of penii, so I don't know how I "stack up". Nor do I wish to, but I've never had a complaint.
 
Futo! Of course you already know the answer.

The bigger your car and your firearms, the smaller your, um, er, "gun".

So I drive a Yugo and shoot a .22 rimfire derringer!

(This is so asinine I'm actually ashamed...)
 
Here something I said to Ms Hysterya there:

"the difference between you second-class scribes and us First-class Citizens is this:

You grossly abuse and misuse your First Amendment rights to take away our Second; we don't do the opposite.

You are, truly, an embarrassment to your already declining profession".

Fight back, guys!!!!

RKBA=INALIENABLE+NON-NEGOTIABLE+SACRED!
 
Just emailed her myself. Basically along the lines of "Who are you, operating under the 1st Amendment, to judge me, for excercising the 2nd?!" I don't expect an answer-- just want to fill her Inbox with posts of exasperation that are not incoherent rants.

Futo-- Be sure and fight the good fight for us "pornographers"... but keep it clean! :)

Dennis: Bow your head in shame...

Regards,
L.P.

------------------
Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
Sigmund Freud said that "A fear of weapons is a sign of sexual and emotional underdevelopment".

SO....where do all these people get off trying to get "Freudian" with their arguments? Freud himself disagrees with them!
 
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