If they confiscated every gun in America, what's to keep the next disturbed 20 year old with Asperger syndrome from taking his truck, SUV, or car down to the schoolyard when kids are huddled around before the bell rings or at recess or at a soccer field and mowing them down like so many stalks of corn? Will we then have an outcry to ban the automobile and every related job that goes with it? Where was the outcry to outlaw the jumbo jet after 911? It's not about hardware. We have to keep guns away from the crazies and criminals only.
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good watercooler arguments to win hearts and minds
- Thread starter kcub
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Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
These events are:
1)Not new
2)Not uniquely American
3)Very often do not involve firearms
4)Claim the lives of about 15 kids a year, out of 15.8million, about 600 kids a year die in school transportation accidents
5)In other countries, the lunatics use knives and swords and kill just as many
6)In other countries, the lunatics use explosives and regularly kill far, far more.
The answer, to an attempted attack, is individuals being able to defend themselves. Even 4, 5, 10 children tragically killed in a firefight would be preferable to 20 waiting to be slaughtered in turn, yes?
The answer to intervening BEFORE an attack is far more complex.
1)Not new
2)Not uniquely American
3)Very often do not involve firearms
4)Claim the lives of about 15 kids a year, out of 15.8million, about 600 kids a year die in school transportation accidents
5)In other countries, the lunatics use knives and swords and kill just as many
6)In other countries, the lunatics use explosives and regularly kill far, far more.
The answer, to an attempted attack, is individuals being able to defend themselves. Even 4, 5, 10 children tragically killed in a firefight would be preferable to 20 waiting to be slaughtered in turn, yes?
The answer to intervening BEFORE an attack is far more complex.
Spats McGee
Administrator
1) Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 daycare-age children, and wounded over 600 more. He used a box van, fertilizer and racing fuel. We haven't banned box vans, fertilizer or racing fuel.
2) The 9/11 terrorists killed thousands using box cutters and airplanes. Neither has been banned.
3) If you want to talk about banning something, let's understand what we're talking about. Rifles with a burst- or full-auto setting are already heavily regulated. Semi-automatic rifles without such settings are all functionally similar: one bullet per trigger pull. The 1994 federal AWB restricted weapons based primarily on cosmetic appearances. Go run image searches for a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle and then for a Mini-14 Tactical. Those two rifles use the same cartridge, same magazine, are equal in accuracy. It doesn't make sense that only one would have been covered by the AWB. (Caution: The danger here is that you'll get a "then let's ban them both" response. You could also compare to something like the Winchester Model 100, which is also semi-auto, but chambered in a more powerful round (.308) than an AR-15 (.223).)
4) The Columbine shooting happened while the AWB was in full force and effect.
5) Columbine, Sandy Hook, Jonesboro, Virginia Tech, Appalachian Law School -- These all happened in Gun Free Zones. (I vote that we rename them Fish-In-A-Barrel Zones.)
6) One of the first documented assault weapons was a rock. Rocks have probably killed millions over the millenia. It's still legal to carry a rock everywhere you go, open or concealed.
2) The 9/11 terrorists killed thousands using box cutters and airplanes. Neither has been banned.
3) If you want to talk about banning something, let's understand what we're talking about. Rifles with a burst- or full-auto setting are already heavily regulated. Semi-automatic rifles without such settings are all functionally similar: one bullet per trigger pull. The 1994 federal AWB restricted weapons based primarily on cosmetic appearances. Go run image searches for a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle and then for a Mini-14 Tactical. Those two rifles use the same cartridge, same magazine, are equal in accuracy. It doesn't make sense that only one would have been covered by the AWB. (Caution: The danger here is that you'll get a "then let's ban them both" response. You could also compare to something like the Winchester Model 100, which is also semi-auto, but chambered in a more powerful round (.308) than an AR-15 (.223).)
4) The Columbine shooting happened while the AWB was in full force and effect.
5) Columbine, Sandy Hook, Jonesboro, Virginia Tech, Appalachian Law School -- These all happened in Gun Free Zones. (I vote that we rename them Fish-In-A-Barrel Zones.)
6) One of the first documented assault weapons was a rock. Rocks have probably killed millions over the millenia. It's still legal to carry a rock everywhere you go, open or concealed.
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357 Python
New member
Today they are called "Criminals", a $500 word for a $5 no account. When are we going to call them what best describes them, the same thing they were called 120+ years ago "OUTLAWS"? They do live OUTside the LAW.
Aspergers . . .
Hi - not strictly firearm related, but I feel it is worth saying. Mods, I am sure you will delete away if you feel necessary.
Just wanted to respectfully suggest avoiding falling afoul of the late trend to linking what happened with either autism or aspergers - which we can thank the ever appalling media for.
Think back to when you were a kid, remember the "strange", "weird", "didn't fit in" children? They were always the vulnerable ones, never showed any more (and usually less) violent impluses than their peers?
Those people don't quite understand social interaction the way "normal" people do, they generally need people to watch out for them throughout their lives because they can be incredibly vulnerable. People with mental health problems are known to be FAR more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators - I strongly suspect the same is true for those with developmental difficulties that fall on the autistic spectrum.
People engaging in debate on all this gain absolutely nothing by contributing to unfounded fears which always compound our misunderstandings of the most vulnerable people in society.
This guy may have been autistic or have had aspergers - having either of those things does not make one a child killer, no more than does being white for example. Having aspergers also does not make one "crazy" - many live rich, fulfilling lives which contribute to society and the economy.
Just wanted to chuck that out anyway, given the reference to aspergers made in the original post - I am sure not done maliciously by any means, just stresses me out when we get fed ill-thought out crap by the media which becomes receives wisdom in the blink of an eye. Sure we can all relate to that here . . . what with those "assault weapons" and all.
Hi - not strictly firearm related, but I feel it is worth saying. Mods, I am sure you will delete away if you feel necessary.
Just wanted to respectfully suggest avoiding falling afoul of the late trend to linking what happened with either autism or aspergers - which we can thank the ever appalling media for.
Think back to when you were a kid, remember the "strange", "weird", "didn't fit in" children? They were always the vulnerable ones, never showed any more (and usually less) violent impluses than their peers?
Those people don't quite understand social interaction the way "normal" people do, they generally need people to watch out for them throughout their lives because they can be incredibly vulnerable. People with mental health problems are known to be FAR more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators - I strongly suspect the same is true for those with developmental difficulties that fall on the autistic spectrum.
People engaging in debate on all this gain absolutely nothing by contributing to unfounded fears which always compound our misunderstandings of the most vulnerable people in society.
This guy may have been autistic or have had aspergers - having either of those things does not make one a child killer, no more than does being white for example. Having aspergers also does not make one "crazy" - many live rich, fulfilling lives which contribute to society and the economy.
Just wanted to chuck that out anyway, given the reference to aspergers made in the original post - I am sure not done maliciously by any means, just stresses me out when we get fed ill-thought out crap by the media which becomes receives wisdom in the blink of an eye. Sure we can all relate to that here . . . what with those "assault weapons" and all.
jason_iowa
New member
Asperger syndrome is a a form of autism. The vast majority of which are non violent. I agree with your sentiment I just don't want people going around thinking every kid with autism is dangerous.
"We tried a so-called "assault weapon ban" for 10 years. It didn't work. Why do you think the same people want to ban the same guns again? They know it will not lower violent crime rates." Combine that with the "urge to do something...anything" without actually creating useful laws argument and an explanation about what semi-auto rifles are and are not, and how infrequently they are used in crime compared to the number out there.
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