going to look at a jungle carbine tomorrow

R

Ruthless4christ

New member
Local classified, .303 jungle carbine $325.00. Called the fella, he has 4 different ones, and he says they all seem to be in good shape, but he does not know much about guns.

I have been wanting one for a long time, and am hoping this may be a great deal. Any tips on what to look for would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
I'm not an expert on these but apparently many are not "authentic" so hopefully an expert will chime in. I will tell you this... Several years ago I had the same urges you have but one thing killed it for me. I read about a condition known as "wandering zero" that plagues the jungle carbines. Apparently the rifle will be shooting with respectable accuracy and suddenly will send a flyer as much as 3-4 feet off target at 100 yards! At the time I was doing the research there was no explanation known. That, coupled with the fact that there are fakes that are pretty hard to distinguish, kind of ruined it for me. I'll stick with U.S. Military stuff.
 
Apparently the rifle will be shooting with respectable accuracy and suddenly will send a flyer as much as 3-4 feet off target at 100 yards! At the time I was doing the research there was no explanation known.
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It's actually been well known by the Brits since the late 1940s (but not necessarily the rest of the world) that the receiver had too many lightening cuts causing the receiver to flex and throw the zero off.
 
The "fakes" are better shooters... no lightening cuts = better shooting (see wandering zero above).

Unless you are building an advanced military rifle collection, getting one that was modified from a Number 4 (standard rifle) will give you a handy rifle that will shoot well, balance well, and be a nice little carbine. I would not hold out for an "original" until YOU are the one that others are turing to for your expertise in identifying varients and versions. For the casual sowner and shooter... who cares?

Willie

.
 
1. "Wandering Zero" is a myth, it does not exist.
"a flyer as much as 3-4 feet off target at 100 yards" - Seriously?!?!?!? This was a combat-issued weapon, and it would not have been accepted with that kind of performance. I've owned a few and shot many.......No Wandering Zero. Do a bit of research.

2. I would be a bit wary of a guy who had four No.5s but said he knows little about guns.
 
jonnyc said:
1. "Wandering Zero" is a myth, it does not exist.
"a flyer as much as 3-4 feet off target at 100 yards" - Seriously?!?!?!? This was a combat-issued weapon, and it would not have been accepted with that kind of performance. I've owned a few and shot many.......No Wandering Zero. Do a bit of research.

2. I would be a bit wary of a guy who had four No.5s but said he knows little about guns.
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+10 on #1 and +100 on #2

The 'wandering zero' was greatly exaggerated by the British military in order to get semi auto rifle along wit the rest to free world, the MOD was considering making the No5 the standard British rifle at the time.

Point of impact does move as much as 3-4moa as the barrel warms, more from the sort fore-end than any so called lightening cuts. If you seriously look at these cut's at the back of the receiver and on the Knox form, you would see they have minimal effect in structural integrity.

The Faz No5 well be EP'd on the left side of the receiver with No5 MkI, date, serial number and manufacturer. Only Faz and BSA made the No5. It should have a ladder sight marked to 800 yds, not the No4's 1200yd marking. It may or may not have a nose cap on the fore-end. It well have a hollow bolt handle.

Typical EP marking on a No5 Faz.
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BSA No5 MkI
bsa501.jpg
 
My all matching 1945 Shirley manufactured No.5 does not have the wandering zero issue.

It is a great camp rifle, it's just a shame that the old 220 grain ammo is not available in Canada anymore.

jc.jpg
 
The 303 jungle carbine is one of the guns I wish I did not sell. That spring loaded bolt action was very fast. I would just slap it upward and it would eject on its own. Then, I would just slap it forward for the next round.

I think these rifles were made in 1947 and later and were not used in WW II.

If I remember right, the 303 British is actually a .311.

The only thing I felt funny about was the 2 lug bolt. I suggest the rifle get checked out by a competent gunsmith for issues such as head space.

Good luck with the 303 jungle carbine.
 
bought a surplus one about 35 yrs. ago for 85.00. looked brand new--mint condition. fun gun to shoot with the surplus brit ammo i got for about 3.5c/round. neatest thing--muzzle flash was about 2ft.--a real head turner on the firing line. i have bought and sold many firearms over the years--this was one of the coolest--i wish i kept it. oh well.:cool:
 
Real or fake, at $325 it is a good deal if the bore is good. I have had several Lee Enfields, great rifles. Sooner or later I will come across a Jungle Carbine that needs a good home.
 
IIRC Mr Lee-Enfield AKA Ian Skennerton found the "wandering zero" was somewhat exaggerated, my personal-and very modest-shooting experience with the No. 5 Mk I convinced me the problem was due to more the overall lighter weight and the too small-and too stiff-recoil pad.
$325 for a genuine one sounds pretty reasonable, I paid $325 for my 1944 made one in 2000.
 
If the two carbines I shoot are representative of the lot, there is no wandering zero. Both are 1945, one February, the other September, both Fazerkerly factory.

The receivers are stout and will not warp under load.

Take a look and check them out. The remakes usually have the wrong rear sight, forearm cutouts, solid bolt handles, soft recoil pads, and aluminum or cast steel flash hiders. Check the flash hider with a magnet for aluminum, and look for a casting line along the length of the flash hider. The finish is often suspect, as well. Still, if it looks good, you may want one even if a fake. Some No. 4 rifles were converted to No. 5's for duty in Cyprus, if you want to rationalize getting one. $325 is a fair price for a genuine No. 5, if you think it may be a trick piece, offer less.
 
Mr. Skennerton pointed out that restocking was originally thought to be the cause of the "wandering zero" (which, BTW, apparently varied from lot to lot of rifles), but it was found not to be the cause, as restocking allayed the problem to a point, but not completely.

Armorers in the far east discovered that when they replaced No. 5 receivers with No. 4 receivers, the problem went away, also according to Mr. Skennerton.

The "wandering zero" problem was very real, and eventually led to the demise of the "jungle carbine."
 
Not really. The development of self-loading rifles and newer, more efficient cartridges killed off the bolt-action LE rifle line.
 
I owned a Jungle carbine for a couple years. At the time, I was shooting genuine surplus cordite ammo, and my No5mk1 was a 1945 Fazakerly.
No giant muzzle flash, and no wandering zero.
I consider it to be one of the finest combat bolt actions ever, and greatly regret trading it off.
Of course, the lack of surplus ammo is a negative for any 303 today.
 
so turns out the gentleman REALLY did not know his guns, it was an 1874 henry martini breach loader, actually in pretty good shape, but not what I was looking for. I would actually like a boer war gun, cept ammo is out off the question, and I must shoot my guns.

thanks so much for the input folks, I am absolutely determined to get a jungle carbine, I am just waiting for the right price, and I hopefully something here will help me make a good choice.
 
My Enfield #4/#5 book by C. Stratton reminds me that the authentic Jungle rear sight is marked for 800 yards.

There is another subtle and hard to notice detail, but on a typical #4/Mk. 1 Enfield, look at the very small area just in front of the magazine, which has a screw.

All four of my #4/Mk1s have the metal's contour exactly matching, touching the contour of the wood.
On both of my Jungles (one is from "Joesalter.com", in NH), the wood's contour does not exactly follow the metal's contour-it has a slightly different shape on both sides.

I told Tikirocker about it at Surplusrifle, and nobody else seems to have noticed this.
 
All four of my #4/Mk1s have the metal's contour exactly matching, touching the contour of the wood.
On both of my Jungles (one is from "Joesalter.com", in NH), the wood's contour does not exactly follow the metal's contour-it has a slightly different shape on both sides.
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This style trigger guard is called "waisted" and was standard on the No5 rifle. Some No4's also had this and all late production No4's use the "waisted" style guard. saving a oz here and a oz there, it adds up.



Mr. Skennerton pointed out that restocking was originally thought to be the cause of the "wandering zero" (which, BTW, apparently varied from lot to lot of rifles), but it was found not to be the cause, as restocking allayed the problem to a point, but not completely.

Armorers in the far east discovered that when they replaced No. 5 receivers with No. 4 receivers, the problem went away, also according to Mr. Skennerton.

The "wandering zero" problem was very real, and eventually led to the demise of the "jungle carbine."
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Peter Laidier was a Brit armor in the far east and has commented on this No5-No4 swap. A minor improvement in the accuracy of the rifle was seen. Keep in mind these all received a new "stocking up" and probably a better job than the originals. You can't attribute the change solely to the No4 receiver. "stocking up" a older No5 often resulted in the same changes without the No4 receiver.

The "wandering zero" was exaggerated so the British military could move on to semi auto rifles, no other reason.:D

There are No5's that do not shoot well but the vast majority shoot just fine. Just like there are No4's that do shoot well. This is mostly from ill fitting stocks and/or worn out barrels.
 
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