Godless ACLU pt 2

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JerryM

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tackdriver and others with similar views,
It is popular to say that the public schools are not the places to teach morals and the places to teach them are the homes and the churches. However that logic has serious flaws. If we consider many of the homes today we find an utter lack of the moral values that formed the basis for the laws and rules that this nation was founded on. There are many homes that are little more than crack houses or houses of immorality. Even the average "good" home is short of proper moral values. Look at the sexual immorality and the recreation drugs and alcohol. TV and entertainment is about violence and illicit sex. These families don't go to church. Where does that leave the children? We see that a large number of people see nothing wrong with "shacking-up." We must not abandon them to their environment and fail to teach basic moral values. This nation was founded on Christian/Biblical values and precepts. That can not be HONESTLY disputed. It wasn't founded on the values of other religions. A Hindu has every right to practice his religion, but if he is offended by Christian teachings then so be it. Which of the Ten Commandments do you object to? I would submit that the major religions of the world generally hold to at least eight of the Ten Commandments. Do the Muslims object to any except maybe the Sabbath for example. Which religion says adultry is OK? Murder? We have drifted into a mindset in this nation that the individual is free to do anything he desires and the impact upon the society as a whole is not important. It is freedom without responsibility. It has resulted in the degradation of this nation to an extent I would not have believed 30 years ago. The ACLU and the liberals have come down on the godless side of every issue in recent years. Jerry
 
JerryM: Of course basic moral values should be taught in schools. But as your own examples demonstrate, basic moral values are not unique to any particular religion. So an appeal to the desirability of teaching moral values is not a good argument for bringing any particular religion into the public schools -- one religion is about as good as another in that respect.

Basic moral values have to do with the kinds of behavior that every society has found to be necessary for maintaining social order over long periods of time. These principles are so important that religion was invented partly to give them divine sanction. Public schools should teach these basic values in a secular way, and leave religion out of it. It is not necessary to believe in God to understand that murder, adultery, stealing, etc. are destructive and unacceptable kinds of behavior.

Let families handle the divine sanction part on their own time and according to their own particular religious beliefs. That's not the government's job, nor should it be.
 
Byron, On the contrary it is necessary to believe in God to have the proper moral standards. Consider the societies that considered headhunting and cannibalism to be acceptable and proper moral values. If there were no God then there would be no one with the authority to establish proper morality. One of the problems today is that so many believe that it is OK for "every man to do that which is right in his own eyes." A society may accept or establish moral values which are in fact harmful to that society. Our own society has done that and is continuing to accept moral values that are harmful to society. Shall I name some? Abortion, homosexuality, shacking-up, recreational use of drugs and alcohol, prohibition against proper disciplining of your child. I might also add the belief that guns are evil and we should get rid of them to protect us all. Considering other religions, as I understand the Hindu religion they think that their ancestors come back as an insect or an animal and they hold those things sacred. That is contrary to the moral beliefs upon which this country was founded. Would you give those Hindu beliefs the same weight as Christian beliefs in the establishment of our laws? We could go down the list and find other things that we would find in other religions that we would find unacceptable as a Christian based nation. Notice I didn't say a "Christian nation" as the vast majority of our citizens are not "born again." However most do to a large extent accept Biblical values. The attitudes of freedom without responsibility is very much responsible for the anti-gun attitudes today. I got my first gun, a Rem 510 .22 ss, when I was 10 (1942). My grandmother borrowed the $7.50 it cost and I and a 14 yr old friend walked 3 miles to Atlanta, TX and I purchased the gun no questions asked. Everyone I knew had a gun by the teenage years, yet we didn't even consider shooting someone else. "Thou shalt not kill." Schools taught that. Kids hunted alone or with friends much of the time. The fact that schools no longer teach Christian moral values has been a large factor in the decline of this nation. Regards, Jerry
 
Jerry, the problem is that when the government picks a religion and promotes it in the schools it is infringing on other people's rights. The government is not allowed to pass a law regarding the establishment of a religion for very good reason. Having the 10 Commandments on the walls and the lord's prayer recited in school forces these things on those people who might not share your and the majority beliefs. You sound like you are protestant. If the majority of the country became Catholic, would you like the schools teaching specifically catholic doctrine as "basic morality" even if you and many other people disagreed with it? You use examples of how society has declined that many people would disagree with. Should your view of morality be foisted on everyone else through taxpayer dollars and mandatory public education?

ps - please be so kind as to explain to me exactly how homosexuality is a threat to society.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JerryM:
Byron, On the contrary it is necessary to believe in God to have the proper moral standards.[/quote]

As an atheist who considers himself both a good citizen and a moral, ethical person, I find that statement extremely offensive, but I'm not sure how long we'll be allowed to discuss it. In another thread, where I satirized the people who are trying to use religion and events like the Columbine shootings to promote their political agenda, only two people got the chance to jump my case before the moderator pointed out that this was a firearms board, not a religious debate board.

Anyway....

My morals and ethics are based on the principle that every human being has a right to respect, and to determine how they want to live their own life so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others. I believe this is essential to any civilized society, and is "right" at the most basic level of sentient thought. I believe one should do "right" because it IS "right", not simply out of fear of divine retribution.

I have no problem with people who believe in gods or religions; if that works for them, they're happy and there's no effect on me. It seems, though, that religious people DO have a problem with those who don't believe as they do. Again, that in itself is fine with me. If they have problems with my beliefs, those are their problems, and they can work them out.

Where I have a problem is with people who want to shape the law to their own set of beliefs, to make their religion the law of the land. This was the first country to formally protect a citizen's right to pray to whatever being they like, or to none at all. That's one of its greatest values, and it's cited in the First Amendment to the Constitution, which shows it was on the top of the list at the Continental Congress. If this ever becomes a "Christian based nation" I will have to leave.
 
David, thanks for bringing that up.

KNOCK IT OFF, PEOPLE. The usual suspects insist on turning a forum for discussion of guns into a forum for discussion of religion. The points of contact between guns and religion are few and tenuous.

Give it a rest. That's not a suggestion or hint.

(reaching for the Tagamet...)
 
As Coinnach said, when it comes to specific religious beliefs, take it to e-mail or some other bulletin board.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 22, 2000).]
 
...and Long Path makes three.

I'm on record as having LITTLE patience for non-gun-related threads in even THIS forum. Contentious threads such as this one, which apparrently are only created to complain about the ACLU on the tangent of religion, are worthy of closure. I do not do so now because Coinneach and Dennis have chosen not to, and I'll follow their lead in this matter...
 
I'll weigh in on this.

Ladies and gentlemen, this Forum is dedicated to RKBA and guns in general. That is our only criteria.

Our membership is not, and shall not, be solely dedicated to Christians, nor to other Peoples of the Book. (Jews and Moslems, to you barbarians.)

We have several members of the Pagan faiths, and their opinions are just as valid as everyone elses. As are the opinions of the Buddhists, Shintoists, Tri-Deists, any-other-ists, Druids, Sun-worshippers, Moon-worshippers, Star-worshippers, Dirt-Worshippers, and any stray Tagalog or Tarahumara who happen to wander into to our Happy Home.

Our cause is too important to risk fracturing along religious lines.

As has been pointed out, there are other forums dedicated to religious viewpoints, and there is always the ever-handy e-mail.

I see no further use for this topic, and I'm shutting it down.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited May 23, 2000).]
 
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