Glock perfection?

V

vanboy

Inactive
I recently had my first experience with Glock perfection and I just have a few questions.

What is with the trigger? I love the trigger pull, but because of the trigger safety I have to wrap my finger around the trigger to pull it. That sometimes causes me to pull my shots off target.

Why isn't the Glock considered a single action gun? Call it what you will, but it is just a single action firearm with a funky trigger.

What about the magazine release? The magazine release doesn't stick out very far and equires me to twist the gun in my hand so that I can push it far enough to release the magazine.

What about the magazines? Our department is using the full metal lined magazines, but half the time I still have to pull the magazine out by hand (even when empty). I thought the full metal lined magazines were supposed to drop free even when fully loaded. In a combat situation, I won't have time to pull out the spent magazine and put a fresh one in.

What is with the slide lock? It is located exactly where my thumb rests. On most guns this would be a good thing, but for me it causes malfunctions. Since the slide lock on the glock moves so easily, sometimes when I fire the gun my thumb will push up the slide lock and lock the slide open. Not a good thing if that happens in a combat situation. I would reposition my hands, but because of my hand size and the size of the Glock's frame, I really don't have room to reposition my hands.

I am not trying to put down the Glock. I feel that it is a good gun, but with all I have heard about Glock perfection I was a little disapointed. I don't want this to become a mud slinging festival, so I won't say exactly what I prefer to shoot. I just want some replys from Glock owners regarding my questions. Do any of you have similar problems?
 
It doesn't sound like Glock is "perfect" for you if you have some many issues. Since all the issues you raised are personal preferences, maybe you should look at another pistol that suits your taste. The "Perfection" is clearly not perfect for you. :)
 
The Glock is NOT "a single action firearm with a funky trigger." If you had more familiarity with it's design, rather than just a perception of it's a trigger pull you would notice that the trigger performs the functions of cocking the striker and releasing it once fully tensioned, hence the classification of "double action."

Hand size is ALWAYS a determining factor in control layout. The many extended buttons and levers available in the marketplace for various guns should tell you that no single gu can fit every hand to Perfection.

I'm lukcy because the Glock 9mms (and .40s and .357s) fit my hand Perfectly. My thumb does not inadvertantly hit the slide release (tho' I prefer the added purchase afforded by the Glock factory extended release as issued on the models 34 and 35), and I don't have to shift my grip to release the magazine (I do not like the extended versions of them).

My mags drop free unless I get in their way as is somtimes the case with my Glock 26, especially if I'm relaoding in a hurry and not paying attention. The few (FML) that I have seen that do not drop free usually have excess plastic on their rear corners causing drag. A few draws along those edges with an x-acto knife usually takes care of it.

No single handgun is perfect for everyone. I used to like the 1911 pattern guns but once I tried a Glock there was no turning back. I call it my Total Glock Conversion Episode. The 1911s are gone, cause I found, what is for me, (Glock) Perfection! :D

YMMV


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Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

[This message has been edited by 9x19 (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
I would love to carry my gun, but the department issued us Glocks and thats what we are required to carry.

I thought that the action of the slide did the cocking. If it is a double action, why do you have to decock(pull the trigger) before field stripping?

[This message has been edited by vanboy (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
Ok, here's my take. No flames or arguements intended. I haven't experienced all of the problems you mentioned, but I can see how they could be a problem for some people. Everybody's hands are different.

I don't get the trigger question. Unless you are trying to pull the trigger with the end of your fingernail I don't see how you could miss the trigger safety and require a "wrap-around".

The Glock is not a single action because the striker is cocked and released by the trigger and can't be cocked by any other means. The trigger does two things. It cocks the striker and releases the striker. That's as doube action as it gets. A single action can be cocked by other means leaving it sitting on a hammer/sear notch in the cocked position. A Glock cannot be put into this condition.

I have to agree. I have to shift my grip or use my off hand to eject the mag.

I have the metal lined, drop free LE/Military mags and they will indeed drop free when empty. However, they didn't when the gun was brand new. Maybe this problem will correct it's self with a little break-in. If not, have the dept armorer take a look at the gun and mags.

I use a grip that places my shooting hand thumb below the slide stop lever and parallel to the slide and my off hand thumb against the frame just behind the take down lever. Never had a problem pushing the slide stop up while shooting.

I have to agree with thequickad. If your department gives you an option to carry whatever you want, I'd suggest looking into something else. Glocks are not for everybody. If they don't give you an option, you'll just have to alter the way you handle the Glock and practice your new grip, mag change, etc techniques a LOT until they become second nature like the handling of whatever you toted before did.

Our PD allows us to carry most anything we want. I still prefer Glocks over anything else. They work for me though. They may not work for you. Good luck resolving these issues with your Glock.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...
 
The trigger bar (part that tensions and releases the striker) raises up into a position forward of the striker when the trigger resets. You have to pull the trigger to release the bar so it drops down out of the way and the striker will pass over it when the slide is pulled forward and off of the frame. Otherwise the bar would catch the striker and keep the slide from coming off. As a result of pulling the trigger, the striker is pulled back and released just like it does when the gun is being fired.

The purpose is not to uncock the gun, it is to drop the trigger bar down out of the way. I hope this makes sense. If you take the Glock apart and reset the trigger you'll see what I am talking about.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...

[This message has been edited by Rainbow Six (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
i don't understand what you mean about wrapping your finger around the trigger. you put your trigger finger in the same spot on the trigger as you would with any other gun.

if the mag release doesn't stick out far enough to your liking then put an extended mag release on your glock. it just sticks out a bit father but is the same shape.

the new mags are called FML (full metal lined) not drop frees. they aren't called drop frees since they don't always drop free. a good practice to do is to eject the mag while your support hand is just comming off the grip. then if the mag stays in the gun as your support hand is moving down towards your belt for another mag just rip out the old mag and toss it on the ground. if done properly and if you practice enough it won't take any longer than it would if the mag ejected freely. this is what you also have to do with the older NFML mags.

what model glock is this? it doesn't seem like your guns "glock perfection" gets along with you very well.
 
Got to throw in my two cents...

I agree; the Glocks FEEL like they are Single Action. Think about it. The slide needs to be racked in order for it to go CLICK or BANG. If it doesn't go click or BANG, then the slide HAS to be racked in order for the striker to be ready for another attempt at a different round. You can NOT cycle the hammer (striker) over and over with a Glock... really similar to a 1911 (or other SA).

I like to have muliple strike capabilities, even though you SHOULD rack the slide if it ever fails to ignite on the first try.

I made that a lot harder than I had to didn't I? ;)
Ben

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Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
Thanks for having the patience to explain how the gun actually works. As for the magazines, I will have to break them in or possibly trim them I guess. I will also try altering how I reload and my hand positions. It is hard to go to new proceedures when the old ones are drilled in and have been practiced over many hours. I appreciate your advice and thank you for not getting sensitive about the subject. BTW I was taught to shoot with the very tip of my finger on the trigger. I usually don't have much finger on the trigger, just enough to make it move.
 
When you clean the magazines, Glock recommends wiping the outside down with a "silicone protective spray". The issue of Glock Autopistols that I have shows Armorall being used. Maybe this will help your magazines drop more efficeintly.
 
The Glock firing pin, after the slide is racked, is always under partial tension. Pulling the trigger only pushes the firing pin the rest of the way to full tension and then releases.
The definition of double action is the trigger performs 2 actions. Cocking the striker and releasing to fire.
Since the Glock trigger does finish cocking the striker it does qualify as a double action.
I myself would call it a modified double action but non the less, it's still a double action.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA
 
I, too, have had the problem of my mags not dropping free when empty. Granted this only happens with some mags, so I guess it's not the gun, but it really bothers me. I appreciate the tip of trying to trim down the back corners, and will try that.

Regarding the action, I'm no expert but I'd call it more of a single action trigger than a double action one. Most properly, I think, it would be called a one and a quarter action trigger. It's actions include about a quarter of pulling the striker back (1/4 of action 1), and releasing the striker (action 2). To me, double action means you can keep pulling the trigger until it fires. My 2 cents.
 
Actually, Glock itself does not does not call it double action rather "safe action." The trigger pull on the Glock is a long way from any traditional double action trigger pull in a revolver or a pistol. The Glock is actually carried "half-cocked" (striker set). When the trigger is pulled, it actually finishes pulling the striker to the rear and realeasing it. When the Glock is referred to as "double action," it is done strictly for political (correctness) and in less than total honesty (like the "thumb rests" and plastic "adjustable sights" on the mini-Glocks to get around import restrictions). Vanboy is as accurate in describing to the Glock as a "single action firearm with a funky trigger" as anybody else is in describing it as "double action."
 
Tecolote, thanks for the links. Those sites realy help explain the Glock's action. I guess "Safety Action" is the only way to describe it since it is not 100% single or 100% double action. BTW I can't believe Glock finally put their site up!

About the silicone spray, I have always been told not to lubricate magazines. Is that information somewhere in the owners manual or is it something between Glock and armorers?
 
you wouldn't be lubricating the magazine.... that would meen disassemble and lube the inside.

I shoot a glock and have a few mags that I had to use "armour-all" on.... just wipe the outsude of the Mag Tube and away you go, if you have a Car Detail Shop they will have Silicone Dressing which is better.

Glock on dude's

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PROUD TO BE CANADIAN
 
The glock is more of a single action than a double action and thats the way I like it. If the glock was a true double action it would have a second strike capability. (again useless in my opinion better to get a new round in the tube. The reason the glock is so awsome is the trigger is so short and has an even shorter trigger reset so it can be fired very quickly and accurately.
I like all kinds of guns but glocks are now my faviorate.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
vanboy,

I agree that it can be tough to adopt new training habits and engrave them into muscle memory so that you'll resort to them instead of your old habits in the event you have to react to a threat. Us older dogs don't like new tricks much anyway. :)

As for which part of the finger to use for pulling the trigger, I'd suggest following Massad Ayoob's doctrine. Ayoob advocates pulling the trigger with the palmar crease of the distal joint of the trigger finger. Simply put, that's where the finger joint furthest from the hand bends. I'd suggest learning this trigger finger position while you are learning your new grip so that your grip doesn't have to be changed again if you later adopt this method. Using this method required me to change my grip slightly.

If you try this technique I think you'll find that even when you're not under stress this is the best part of the finger to use to pull the trigger on a Glock. Under stress, the loss of dexterity in the extremities could make using the finger tip with a Glock a very deadly technique, only you may be the one that "gets dead". As you mentioned above, I agree that the Glock trigger pull is very accurately described as "funky" but the pull is also very consistent from shot to shot as far as length, effort required, etc. Consistency breeds accuracy, which is why I prefer the Glock trigger over any other semi-auto pistol (except the single action 1911 of course) even though it *IS* funky. I have honestly found that using the distal joint, as recommended by Ayoob, pretty much takes the funk out of the Glock trigger pull and actually increases the consistency due to finer trigger control.

When using the pad of my finger as I did before, I found myself trying to balance between a slower squeeze, which resulted in an inconsistent rate of pull and a sense that the movement of the trigger was slowing and speeding up a few times during the pull (aka funky), and a jerk of the trigger, which moved the trigger at a faster, more constant rate but also moved the sights.

I have adopted the technique recommended by Ayoob into my dry fire routine and I have found that the sights move far less during the trigger pull when I use the distal joint than they did when I used the pad of my finger. It also feels like it takes half the muscle effort to pull the trigger and it feels like the trigger moves at a *MUCH* more constant rate. It's like a free trigger job!! :D I feel like I am controlling the trigger now instead of just pulling it which is a boost to my confidence.

Ayoob has an article in the July 2000 issue of Gun World magazine titled, "Myths of Practical Rifle Shooting". In that article, while addressing myth#2, he explains this technique and why it works. In my opinion, this issue of Gun World is worth ten times it's price to any Glock owner that will take the time to understand this technique alone. The rest of the article is worth a read also
Hope this helps.

I'd be interested in hearing feedback from other Glockers after trying this technique after previously using the pad or finger tip. While they may not adopt this techinque, I think they'll have to admit that it does go a long way toward gettin' the funk out. :)

R6

[This message has been edited by Rainbow Six (edited June 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rainbow Six (edited June 22, 2000).]
 
Glock is not a single action nor is it a double action, nor is it "Double action only" the favorite term of Jeff Cooper. :D

None of these terms realy describe what goes on durring the Glock operating cycle.
 
vanboy,

You're welcome. Can we all agree that Glocks aren't SA, DA or DAO?

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
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