Glock And Privacy Issues

J

Joe_Pike

New member
I just read and interesting post by a fairly large and well respected gun shop about being dropped from the Glock Blue Label program because they wouldn't allow access to their 4473s. I wonder if that means that all of those Blue Label dealers that are not being dropped are giving Glock access to these documents and if so, is that even legal? I would think not.

Trop Gun Shop regrets to inform our customers that we will no longer be participating in the Glock Blue Label program. Effective immediately, Glock terminated us from the program for refusing to furnish access to our customers’ private information for the purposes of auditing by Glock employees. While it is regrettable that we will no longer be able to offer the benefits of the Blue Label program here at Trop, we absolutely refuse to compromise the sensitive information of our customers by furnishing it to anyone without proper authority through standard legal practices.
To participate in the Glock Blue Label program a dealer must allow Glock access to audit “qualifying credentials” of its Blue Label customers. Typically these credentials are a form of identification verifying the individual is a member of one of the groups listed in the Blue Label program.
Recently a representative of Glock entered our establishment and demanded access to view our records related to all Blue Label sales, specifically our ATF Form 4473s, which contain very detailed, personal and identifying information of our customers. We refused the Glock representative access to this information.
During repeated correspondence Glock continued to demand access to the 4473s or we would be terminated from the Blue Label program. We attempted to reconcile the situation while maintaining our customers’ privacy and made every effort to comply with reasonable requests to audit the Blue Label sales to maintain the integrity of the program. However, Glock insisted that access to the 4473s and only access to the 4473s would be a sufficient level of compliance.
Our position was, and continues to be, that we will not surrender to Glock our Form 4473s and our customers’ identifying information under any circumstance. It is an untenable breach of our customers’ privacy and Trop Gun Shop will not submit to this unreasonable demand. As a result of our position, Glock immediately terminated our status as an authorized participant of the Blue Label program. Furthermore, Glock advised us that if we ever applied in the future, that request would be denied. While we are displeased that we can no longer support our qualifying customers through the Blue Label program, Trop Gun Shop remains committed to the security and privacy of all of our customers, and continues to offer its Law Enforcement / Military discount to those who qualify.
Regards,
Trop Gun Shop
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Glock needs some sort of way to verify that they aren't being sold to just anyone. No different than any other manufacturers that offer similar programs.
 
Glock needs some sort of way to verify that they aren't being sold to just anyone. No different than any other manufacturers that offer similar programs.
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I suspect GLOCK is more interested in auditing the Gun Shops than the actual buyer. Is a buyer required to complete a Blue Label Program specific form? If so couldn’t GLOCK simply audit those forms? Of course any form will probably include personal information, so it may just be the price people pay to participate in the program.
 
The posted material makes it sound like the gun shop offered Glock the evidence that the sales qualified for discounted prices, but that Glock wouldn't stop at that and demanded access to the more complete information on the 4473. Interesting dilemma, and I respect the gun shop's position. I also have in mind that we are only hearing the gun shop's side of things.
 
Today said:
I suspect GLOCK is more interested in auditing the Gun Shops than the actual buyer. Is a buyer required to complete a Blue Label Program specific form? If so couldn’t GLOCK simply audit those forms? Of course any form will probably include personal information, so it may just be the price people pay to participate in the program.
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It's been about 2 years since I bought anything through the BLP, but the last time I did: (1) There was a BLP form, but the shop didn't actually keep it; (2) I did have to display credentials, and the shop might have photocopied those; and (3) the 4473 is a totally separate document.
 
I was under the impression that 4473s are documents that are not allowed to be viewed by anyone other than BATFE or a similar LE agency.
 
Off the top of my head, I'm not sure about that. Might be right, but I don't have time to look at the law on it right now.
 
BarryLee said:
...Is a buyer required to complete a Blue Label Program specific form? If so couldn’t GLOCK simply audit those forms?...
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The problem is that the only document which necessarily identifies the buyer of the gun is the 4473. So it would appear that an auditor, in order to properly opine that the dealer is in compliance with the Glock program, would need to match up buyer credentials with a 4473 showing purchase. An auditor could consider the 4473 the best evidence of the actual purchase because it is required to be maintained under federal law (and is subject to audit by ATF) for reasons independent of the Glock Blue Label program.

So while the Glock audit procedures might appear intrusive, they also appear to be necessary under, and in accordance with, standard auditing practices. To conduct a valid audit of pretty much anything, an auditor must necessarily, in most cases, have access to private or confidential information.

That's common. And therefore every auditor I've ever dealt with will be bound by a pretty tight nondisclosure agreement. Anyone in the business of auditing will take his confidentiality commitments very seriously. If he doesn't, he won't be in the auditing business very long.
 
I can't imagine that Glock wants to have access to 4473's and shop records for the purpose of photocopying or transcribing and then removing from the shop. If the auditor simply wants to see a few sales records pulled at random and look at them INSIDE the shop, then I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that as a customer... but if Glock wants to actually TAKE my personal information out of the store, it would be an issue.

I would like to see the contract language for a Blue Label dealer and what specifically Glock requires. I know for a fact that the 2 Blue Label guns I bought were done with with my Military ID and set of orders... which the did not photocopy because we're not allowed to let them. The counter-guy simply looked them over and handed them back to me.

More information on EXACTLY what Glock wanted and EXACTLY what the store refused to do is required.

Initially though, I say "good" on the shop owner.
 
SamNavy said:
I can't imagine that Glock wants to have access to 4473's and shop records for the purpose of photocopying or transcribing and then removing from the shop....
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We have no reason to believe that's what Glock wanted. In fact, what the gun shop wrote, as quoted in the OP, was (emphasis added):
...a representative of Glock entered our establishment and demanded access to view our records related to all Blue Label sales, specifically our ATF Form 4473s, ...
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I was under the impression that 4473s are documents that are not allowed to be viewed by anyone other than BATFE or a similar LE agency.
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The 4473 contains all sorts of sensitive information. It's pretty much a one-page identity-theft kit if misused. That said, the information is protected by the 1974 Privacy Act. I'm not aware of any specific statute restricting access beyond that.

Some manufacturers do require customers requesting a rebate to mail in a copy of the 4473.
 
Some manufacturers do require customers requesting a rebate to mail in a copy of the 4473
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The only part that is needed is the third page with the firearm info. They don't require any personal info.
 
SamNavy said:
I can't imagine that Glock wants to have access to 4473's and shop records for the purpose of photocopying or transcribing and then removing from the shop. If the auditor simply wants to see a few sales records pulled at random and look at them INSIDE the shop, then I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that as a customer... but if Glock wants to actually TAKE my personal information out of the store, it would be an issue.

I would like to see the contract language for a Blue Label dealer and what specifically Glock requires. I know for a fact that the 2 Blue Label guns I bought were done with with my Military ID and set of orders... which the did not photocopy because we're not allowed to let them. The counter-guy simply looked them over and handed them back to me.

More information on EXACTLY what Glock wanted and EXACTLY what the store refused to do is required.

Initially though, I say "good" on the shop owner.
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Mine was military orders and DL or Mil ID. They copied my military orders for their records.
 
Actually, I've known Beretta and Ruger to require page two as well.
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I'm not sure anout Beretta but I sent in for a rebate with Ruger in December and all I sent them was page three. Maybe they changed their policy.
 
Unless there is more to this than I can see it would appear that Trop Gun Shop is well meaning, but a bit overcautious. I wouldn't qualify anyway, but there are plenty of other options for those who do.
 
Joe_Pike said:
I'm not sure anout Beretta but I sent in for a rebate with Ruger in December and all I sent them was page three. Maybe they changed their policy.
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However, I suspect that the terms of those rebate programs are significantly different from Glock's Blue Label program. What might be satisfactory proof that a rebate is due is probably considerably different from the sort of documentation necessary to demonstrate compliance with an LE/Military discount program. So what Beretta or Ruger need to pay a rebate is irrelevant here.
 
It seems like everyone, everywhere, thinks it's ok to want other folks' private information.
Like everyone does it, so what's the problem.
Now, anyone who objects is treated like a weirdo.
And it's with about everything, not just guns.
 
g.willikers said:
It seems like everyone, everywhere, thinks it's ok to want other folks' private information.
Like everyone does it, so what's the problem....
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The reality is that it is okay under some circumstances and for certain purposes.

If you want a loan, you'll need to expect to be required to disclose private information to the lender as part of applying. If you want your insurance to pay your doctor's bill, you'll need to expect that certain private information will need to be disclosed to your medical insurer. If you want a job, especially one having a lot of responsibility, you'll need to expect to disclose private information as well.

A lender is entitled to information reasonably needed to decide if you're credit worthy. A medical insurer is entitled to information it reasonably needs to decide if your claim is valid and payable. A prospective employer is entitled to evaluate your abilities, competence and trustworthiness.

And if you want to take advantage of a special price offered by Glock to certain types of people, you need to expect that the dealer will need to be able to verify that you qualify and that Glock will need to make sure the dealer is doing things properly.

In a world involving a complex web of business and financial interactions among strangers, complete privacy is a chimera.
 
This could be because a Glock employee charged with managing the BLP is currently charged with fraud for allowing some dealers to sell BLP guns to non authorized personal. He joins a line of Glock executives currently awaiting legal action and court appearances. Google Glock. It's interesting reading.
 
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