Giving the devil it's due, The NY Times editorial has a point.

alan

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Interrogating the Protesters

Published: August 17, 2004





For several weeks, starting before the Democratic convention, F.B.I. officers have been questioning potential political demonstrators, and their friends and families, about their plans to protest at the two national conventions. These heavy-handed inquiries are intimidating, and they threaten to chill freedom of expression. They also appear to be a spectacularly poor use of limited law-enforcement resources. The F.B.I. should redirect its efforts to focus more directly on real threats.

Six investigators recently descended on Sarah Bardwell, a 21-year-old intern with a Denver antiwar group, who quite reasonably took away the message that the government was watching her closely. In Missouri, three men in their early 20's said they had been followed by federal investigators for days, then subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury. They ended up canceling their plans to show up for the Democratic and Republican conventions.

The F.B.I. is going forward with the blessing of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel - the same outfit that recently approved the use of torture against terrorism suspects. In the Justice Department's opinion, the chilling effect of the investigations is "quite minimal," and "substantially outweighed by the public interest in maintaining safety and order." But this analysis gets the balance wrong. When protesters are made to feel like criminal suspects, the chilling effect is potentially quite serious. And the chances of gaining any information that would be useful in stopping violence are quite small.

The knock on the door from government investigators asking about political activities is the stuff of totalitarian regimes. It is intimidating to be visited by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, particularly by investigators who warn that withholding information about anyone with plans to create a disruption is a crime.

And few people would want the F.B.I. to cross-examine their friends and family about them. If engaging in constitutionally protected speech means subjecting yourself to this kind of government monitoring, many Americans may decide - as the men from Missouri did - that the cost is too high.

Meanwhile, history suggests that the way to find out what potentially violent protesters are planning is not to send F.B.I. officers bearing questionnaires to the doorsteps of potential demonstrators. As became clear in the 1960's, F.B.I. monitoring of youthful dissenters is notoriously unreliable. The files that were created in the past often proved to be laughably inaccurate.

The F.B.I.'s questioning of protesters is part of a larger campaign against political dissent that has increased sharply since the start of the war on terror.

At the Democratic convention, protesters were sent to a depressing barbed-wire camp under the subway tracks. And at a recent Bush-Cheney campaign event, audience members were required to sign a pledge to support President Bush before they were admitted.

F.B.I. officials insist that the people they interview are free to "close the door in our faces," but by then the damage may already have been done. The government must not be allowed to turn a war against foreign enemies into a campaign against critics at home.
 
Of course, if the protester in question has a history of hurling trashcans through Starbuck's windows at WTO protests, then the FBI and other law enforcement officials should know in advance about said protester's violent proclivities.

Besides, there is no Constitutional protection for people who want to stand in the street, shouting profanites, harassing the general public, and causing problems for citizens. The First Amendment only guarantees their right to:

1) Peaceably assemble.
2) Petition the government for redress of grievences.

Protesting, per se, is neither of these actions. Let the unemployed hippies rent out a conference room and write letters. If they insist on disrupting the day to day operations of a major American city with their infantile frustrated antics, then they should rightfully fall under the scrutiny of law enforcement.
 
Far too often the tiny minority of violent protestors are used as a convenient pretext to crack down on all of the legit ones. The anti-WTO demonstrators in Seattle are a perfect example of this.

Now cities all over the country are passing protesting ordinances based on this one event where the police allowed the situation to get out of control by not doing anything while a small group of "anarchists" were smashing windows and breaking things.
 
Read this too: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1193291/posts

One of the ringleaders, from "Not In Our Name," has refused to call for non-violence during the protests, and has described their planned activities as a "battle."

They are planning a tear-gas saturated riot, not a "demonstration" or a "peaceable assembly."

They're excusing their planned lawlessness by accusing Bush of "sacking the rule of law," and trying to pawn off the blame for their actions on Bloomberg.

I've seen leftists protest in San Francisco - they are some of the most vile, angry, foul-mouthed people you'd ever care to meet. There's a reason they favor gun control - they know that if they had a gun, they'd go on a killing spree anytime anyone looked at them funny.

My own suspicion is that these investigations are being spurred by people talking about their "Smash the State" plans online thinking that they're anonymous, and police records of various professional protestors from the riot in Seattle and other incidents.
 
Repressive rant:

"The First Amendment only guarantees their right to:

1) Peaceably assemble.
2) Petition the government for redress of grievences.

Protesting, per se, is neither of these actions."

WRONG! Peaceable assembly ("peaceable" being the operative term) certainly IS a legitimate form of protest, and is an oft-used means for the aforesaid petitioning for the redress of grievances. Contrary to the utterly baseless claims made above about the First Amendment, lawful marches, parades, assemblies, and similar demonstrations have been used by American citizens to indicate support or opposition since this country was formed.

Ever hear the phrase "keep the ball rolling?" Got even a clue as to its origin? In the early 1800's, there being no telegraph, still less television or internet, and only local, partisan newspapers (as opposed to a conglomerate of partisan newspapers), a crowd would push a huge (15' or more) ball, painted with slogans, from town to town. Partisans in each town would "keep the ball rolling" into the next town, to drum up support for a candidate or platform.

That is both "peaceable assembly" AND political speech, which is what the First Amendment is supposed to protect (although a recent USSC decision concerning campaign financing and free speech imperils that purpose).

Remember silent vigils, silent marches, and the Civil Rights Campaign of the '60's? All "peaceably assemblies" (until the police unleashed dogs and water cannon on the marchers, anyway); all had as their purpose the "redress of grievances."

Narrow, jingoistic declarations notwithstanding, protesting is the ESSENCE of the First Amendment's purpose. Having just overthrown a government of censorship, taxes, and licenses which obstructed every manner of free speech, the authors of the Bill of Rights had a far better understanding than certain people on this board of the need for expression, AND its protection.

Next we'll be told that the Fourth Amendment should not apply to hard drives..... :barf:
 
Far too often the tiny minority of violent protestors are used as a convenient pretext to crack down on all of the legit ones. The anti-WTO demonstrators in Seattle are a perfect example of this.

When the police try to arrest someone for smashing a window during a situation like this, they are instantly surrounded by a screaming mob, and no matter how gently they handle the detention and conveyance of that individual window-smasher who's writhing on the ground in feigned agony, the crowd gets even more worked up.

As this develops, perhaps with rocks and bottles being thrown by unknown assailants from the crowd, the police then usually make the decision to clear everyone out of the area, which is when the tear gas comes out. This can further enrage the crowd, particularly those who have brought respirators and goggles with them.

Every so often the KKK inbreds stage a rally at the City Hall of Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I've had the chance to observe this progression first-hand. When the bricks and rocks started sailing over the treetops from the adjacent streets, hitting one of the KKK women in the head, is when the crowd was dispersed.

Tear gas tastes nasty.

It's really a no-win situation for the police - the leftists are out to provoke a confrontation, and the police are seriously, SERIOUSLY outnumbered, and the leftists have none of the Constitutional restraints of the police officers.
 
When the police try to arrest someone for smashing a window during a situation like this, they are instantly surrounded by a screaming mob, and no matter how gently they handle the detention and conveyance of that individual window-smasher who's writhing on the ground in feigned agony, the crowd gets even more worked up.

As this develops, perhaps with rocks and bottles being thrown by unknown assailants from the crowd, the police then usually make the decision to clear everyone out of the area, which is when the tear gas comes out. This can further enrage the crowd, particularly those who have brought respirators and goggles with them.

Every so often the KKK inbreds stage a rally at the City Hall of Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I've had the chance to observe this progression first-hand. When the bricks and rocks started sailing over the treetops from the adjacent streets, hitting one of the KKK women in the head, is when the crowd was dispersed.

Tear gas tastes nasty.

It's really a no-win situation for the police - the leftists are out to provoke a confrontation, and the police are seriously, SERIOUSLY outnumbered, and the leftists have none of the Constitutional restraints of the police officers.

I pretty much have to disagree with everything you said.

I'm probably gonna get flagged at the NSA for saying this, but it wouldn't be the first time. :D :

The problem here is that you're falling for the same pressure from above, pressure from below (also known as problem, reaction, solution) confusion tactic that many other people fall for. You sound like myself posting on Free Republic a few years ago. See government or powerful individuals create the crisis and then offer the solution in the form of more government control and more tyranny. Give up your liberties and we'll protect you from those 5 evil Anarchist protesters breaking everything in the middle of the peaceful 100,000 strong protest.

Or have the police ordered to do nothing until they are at a fever pitch and then release them on the crowd in a berzerker fashion after they're foaming at the mouth for having to watch violent criminals in action while being powerless to stop them for one (or was it two) days straight like what happened in Seattle.

See...the police are manipulated, you're manipulated, the protesters are manipulated and everyones rights are violated. The police are turned into JBT's in the eyes of the protesters. Everyone loses.

Most of the time who funds and founds these violent groups? (which are always very small, they have a hard time finding enough psychos to work for them) The F.B.I., CIA, other government agencies and so called leftist and so called right-wing rich boys' clubs. Because of this phony illusion of these "violent" leftists (who in reality are by and large peaceful legit protestors with a few paid thugs mixed in to act as the boogy men) we're being gradually trained into giving up our right to protest by establishment type (NWO) phony left and phony right wing authoritarian talking heads.

Why do the globalists keep winning? Because they're masters of propaganda and most people aren't sophisticated enough to see past the phony left/right political spectrum. The sad fact is that most people are spoonfed.
 
Number 6,

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia stated in
Christian Knights of KKK v. District of Columbia that when using a
public forum, "...speakers do not have a constitutional right to convey
their message whenever, wherever and however they please."

Furthermore, the Brandenberg Standard, set forth in 1969, in Brandenberg v. Ohio, the Supreme Court struck down the conviction of a Ku Klux Klan member, and establishes: Speech can be suppressed only if it is intended, and likely to produce, "imminent lawless action". It is quite obvious to anyone with half a brain that the majority of the GOP protesters will be involved in "lawless action". For one, ignoring the assembly permit is lawlessness in my book.

Finally, in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the Court held that so-called "fighting words ... which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace," are not protected. This decision was based on the fact that fighting words are of "slight social value as a step to truth." How many of these trust-fund kids and aging hippies will be uttering such "fighting words" at the convention? I can predict with a high degree of accuracy somewhere around 90%. Go into Union Square Park at any time and

Is it is in this decision, and others like it, that the Supreme Court has recognized the limitations of the First Amendment.

protesting is the ESSENCE of the First Amendment's purpose

There is no "essence" to the Constitution, the words speak for themselves. The protection of peaceable assembly, within the bounds of reasonable expectation, does not include the protection of protesters hurling epithets, curses, and bottles at police officers.
 
In late 1967, early 1968, I lived in Berkley, at a small motel, around the corner from the Shattuck Hotel. This was in the heyday, more of less, or the late Mario Savio, and his Free Speech Movement.

As memory serves, while there was all manner of Free Speech for Mario and his associates, there was precious little for anyone not so annointed. Has anything much changed?

As for the poster, who essentially offered that most people haven't a clue as to what is going on, my words, not his, he is much more right than wrong.
 
Problem - solution. Agent provocateurs were present at the Seattle WTO debacle - suited up wearing masks, and busting windows etc. I didn't see any police arresting them. So who's organizing, funding and protecting them?

But's let's be objective about this on the surface level. The short-handed FBI has enough people to track down all the deadly Al Kidya we-are-going-to-nuke-or-poison-the-USA operatives and cells in this country, those coming in - and their assets - and still send six agents to see someone who might organize some window smashing or other unruly street behavior?? And they have how many agents in total engaged in this?

Al Kidya is becoming a bigger joke by the day.
 
Blind obeisance and repression

We have been told on this thread that:

"Protesting, per se, is neither of these actions." [peacable assembly or
the petitioning for redress of grievances]

Under this shallow analysis, citizens CANNOT protest; we must mutely submit "petitions for the redress of grievances," presumably by waiting by the drawbridge for the king's chancellor to pass by and deign to accept them.

That same poster then ignores numerous, documented examples of peaceable assemblies, exercising First Amendment rights by protesting. Instead, he focuses on UNlawful protest; i.e., inflammatory language, violent conduct, or inappropriate forums.

There is nothing illegal, or even un-American about protesting; it is still fundamental part of our birthrights. Given the attitudes set forth above, and the blind enthusiasm for the abridgment of our liberties under the PATRIOT ACT, that may not be the case for long. :barf:
 
And, those being questioned by the FBI should help familiarize the special agents with the phrase "get bent", thus making it a valuable exercise of their rights. I think it's a very dangerous precedent (and quite unconstitutional) when we start start making laws where mere SILENCE is a crime, when one has knowledge of another planning to commit a crime, if we're innocent of involvement, other than the mere knowledge. This is America, jack, and I don't have to tell nobody nuttin if I don't want to, even if they're planning on taking down a few buildings (unless and I until I actively participate in the conspiracy, even if withdrawing from the conspiracy, giving rise to a duty to report. Or if one actually LIEs to the investigator, thus committing obstruction - these two things are what Michael Fortier got jail time for, in connection with McVeigh & Nichols). But short of those two narrow circumstances, I think a LOT of Americans need to start wising up to the thugs by inviting those who question and threaten them to pound sand. Really hard. A lot of sand.
 
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