Pond James Pond
New member
I just thought I'd share some observations I have made as I've measured and recorded the dimensions of some milsurp ammo I have access to. The origins are Finnish, Swede, Brazilian and US. Despite the no frills packaging, plain FMJs and crimped primers, the Brazilian stuff seems more llike commercial grade.
As I've alluded already, I may decide to pull apart some of this ammo to see if there is scope for giving it great uniformity upon reassembly. Ideal this would be done with all original components.
So I thought I might document my findings for general consumption. May be old hat to some but to other, like me, it may be new information.
Firstly, all are .308, all are steel under copper FMJs, except for the Brazilian which is a true copper jacket. I think all are in the 165-170gn range of bullet weight. All averages, medians and SDs are based on 20 case groups except for the US cartridges of which I can only fiddle with 10.
So far I have only had the calipers out and here are the results:
Values are MEAN, MEDIAN, MAX, MIN and STDEV in mm.
COAL, OAL from Ogive, and difference between the two
Fin:
70.89 55.46 15.43
70.88 55.47 15.41
71.12 55.62 15.60
70.76 55.28 15.18
0.09 0.09 0.11
Brazilian:
70.74 55.78 14.96
70.75 55.80 14.96
70.84 55.96 15.13
70.63 55.50 14.82
0.05 0.09 0.07
Swede
70.82 55.32 15.49
70.81 55.36 15.47
70.88 55.55 15.86
70.77 54.93 15.26
0.03 0.17 0.16
US
70.83 55.44 15.39
70.85 55.43 15.42
70.89 55.74 15.58
70.74 55.21 15.15
0.05 0.17 0.15
So far it seems like the most consistently loaded ammo, tip to tip, is Swedish whilst the Brazilian seems to have the most consistent ogive measured OAL.
It also seems like the Brazilian ammo has the most consistent bullet form as the difference from the complete OAL and Ogive OAL is the smallest.
Finnish seems to be the most inconsistent, compared to the others, although none of the values are miles from one another.
I plan to produce similar measurements for bullet weight, charge weight and case length. I'll add these as an edit to this post or to a subsequent reply, depending on how long it takes me to get organised!
Here are similar values but for charge weight, bullet weight and case length:
Finnish (ball powder)
44.65 146.22 48.47
44.65 146.35 50.96
44.90 146.80 51.05
44.30 145.40 50.95
0.15 0.42 0.04
Brazilian (VV-style stick powder)
43.76 143.82 51.01
43.80 143.80 51.02
44.00 144.30 51.09
43.40 143.40 50.95
0.15 0.23 0.04
This second group of measurements I only did for the Finnish and Brazilian stock as the quantities are too small to do the same with the Swedish and American. The Brazilian stuff seemed generally more well made and it was super heavily crimped. I had to seat the bullet deeper to then get it to come out.
One thing I did notice whilst pulling the bullets with the inertial bullet puller is that neck tension was very variable: some rounds would come apart with a firm tap, others would need several whacks.
The plan is now to shoot some of the standard stuff, record the pattern and then see if that improves once things like OAL, neck tension and charge weights are far closer to one another as they would be in a genuine handload.
Let me know what this tells you and how you would maximise the use of this information.
As I've alluded already, I may decide to pull apart some of this ammo to see if there is scope for giving it great uniformity upon reassembly. Ideal this would be done with all original components.
So I thought I might document my findings for general consumption. May be old hat to some but to other, like me, it may be new information.
Firstly, all are .308, all are steel under copper FMJs, except for the Brazilian which is a true copper jacket. I think all are in the 165-170gn range of bullet weight. All averages, medians and SDs are based on 20 case groups except for the US cartridges of which I can only fiddle with 10.
So far I have only had the calipers out and here are the results:
Values are MEAN, MEDIAN, MAX, MIN and STDEV in mm.
COAL, OAL from Ogive, and difference between the two
Fin:
70.89 55.46 15.43
70.88 55.47 15.41
71.12 55.62 15.60
70.76 55.28 15.18
0.09 0.09 0.11
Brazilian:
70.74 55.78 14.96
70.75 55.80 14.96
70.84 55.96 15.13
70.63 55.50 14.82
0.05 0.09 0.07
Swede
70.82 55.32 15.49
70.81 55.36 15.47
70.88 55.55 15.86
70.77 54.93 15.26
0.03 0.17 0.16
US
70.83 55.44 15.39
70.85 55.43 15.42
70.89 55.74 15.58
70.74 55.21 15.15
0.05 0.17 0.15
So far it seems like the most consistently loaded ammo, tip to tip, is Swedish whilst the Brazilian seems to have the most consistent ogive measured OAL.
It also seems like the Brazilian ammo has the most consistent bullet form as the difference from the complete OAL and Ogive OAL is the smallest.
Finnish seems to be the most inconsistent, compared to the others, although none of the values are miles from one another.
I plan to produce similar measurements for bullet weight, charge weight and case length. I'll add these as an edit to this post or to a subsequent reply, depending on how long it takes me to get organised!
Here are similar values but for charge weight, bullet weight and case length:
Finnish (ball powder)
44.65 146.22 48.47
44.65 146.35 50.96
44.90 146.80 51.05
44.30 145.40 50.95
0.15 0.42 0.04
Brazilian (VV-style stick powder)
43.76 143.82 51.01
43.80 143.80 51.02
44.00 144.30 51.09
43.40 143.40 50.95
0.15 0.23 0.04
This second group of measurements I only did for the Finnish and Brazilian stock as the quantities are too small to do the same with the Swedish and American. The Brazilian stuff seemed generally more well made and it was super heavily crimped. I had to seat the bullet deeper to then get it to come out.
One thing I did notice whilst pulling the bullets with the inertial bullet puller is that neck tension was very variable: some rounds would come apart with a firm tap, others would need several whacks.
The plan is now to shoot some of the standard stuff, record the pattern and then see if that improves once things like OAL, neck tension and charge weights are far closer to one another as they would be in a genuine handload.
Let me know what this tells you and how you would maximise the use of this information.
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