Gel test: 38 spl 135 gr +P (redux)

A

Andrew Wiggin

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I did a previous test with Speer .38 spl +P 135 gr Gold Dot from my S&W 638 and it had less than stellar results. This load is supposed to be one of the few recommended loads for a short barreled .38 revolver and it did not perform as expected. I thought it might have something to do with the colder temperatures the day we did the testing so I redid the test. I left the revolver and ammo in the refrigerator overnight and kept it in the cooler on the way out, then fired a couple shots with it cold and one with it warm. I also fired a shot from a 4" GP-100. All shots were through four layers of denim and impact velocities are noted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ukjPssIYQ
 
The 158 grain Buffalo is soft cast. Gel tests I have seen have been O.K. - should go 12" to 14" but may fragment. Since it is easy for me to suggest ways for you to spend your time and $$$, please try the Buffalo Bore hard cast 150 grain stand pressure wadcutter, it should go about two feet and the Cor-Bon 110 grain DPX +P - I'm sure it will preform well/best of all if expansion/penetration is the goal out of a 2" barrel. I like the 150 grain wadcutter which should out-penetrate anything out there in .38 special even compared to +P loads.
 
The 158 grain Buffalo is soft cast. Gel tests I have seen have been O.K. - should go 12" to 14" but may fragment. Since it is easy for me to suggest ways for you to spend your time and $$$, please try the Buffalo Bore hard cast 150 grain stand pressure wadcutter, it should go about two feet and the Cor-Bon 110 grain DPX +P - I'm sure it will preform well/best of all if expansion/penetration is the goal out of a 2" barrel. I like the 150 grain wadcutter which should out-penetrate anything out there in .38 special even compared to +P loads
Click to expand...

+1 on BBs hard cast 150 gr. Works the best in a 2 inch or under revolver.
Howard
 
Interesting.

That is my chosen carry load in my 042.

A few years ago I fired several into a trash can (plastic) full of water at about 20 feet and got excellent penetration and expansion.
 
Mike, did you shoot through denim? What was the temperature?

jmortimer, I hope it does exactly that. I don't really care for fragmentation in a handgun bullet but if it expands somewhat and penetrates 12"-14" I'm not too worried about fragmentation.
 
Not so much the gun as the powder. Cold powder has been demonstrated to produce lower velocities in other tests and my own testing is consistent with that.

Cold:

801 fps
811 fps
819 fps

Warm:

880 fps

The sample size is too small to be sure, but it even looks as though the warmth generated by each shot caused the subsequent shot to be a little faster.

This load has been well proven in laboratory conditions. It consistently expands well in bare gelatin and through heavy clothing. The problem is, I believe all professional testing is done at around 70 degrees.

As far as water goes, it tends to produce the greatest upset that is possible with a bullet. Gelatin and tissue generally show somewhat less expansion than water does. Water beats the crap out of nothing but if you're going to use water, it's best to use a line of milk jugs or plastic bags (Fackler box) and denim and to bear in mind that it's not quite as accurate as properly calibrated gelatin.
 
No, I know that. It's just my understanding that these bullets were supposed to expand at a low threshold of about 700 to 750 fps.

As far as water goes, Fackler has a simple formula to correlate the expansion and penetration in water (even a standing column like a garbage can) to expansion and penetration in gelatin. Not sure what it is right off the top of my head, but it apparently shows pretty good fidelity between the two media.
 
Was the ammo from your previous test and the ammo from this one the same lot number? It sounds to me like Speer might have had a bad batch of bullets and if ammo from a different lot number performs better that would be indicative of such.
 
That is the first negative test I have read of the 135 gr Speer SB (Short Barrel) rounds. When I carried a .38 snub, that was my round of choice.

I fired a GDHP 135g +P through drywall with no expansion. Just an FYI.
Click to expand...
Everything I have read indicates that firing any JHP (with the possible exception of DPX) through drywall will pretty much always plug the cavity and result in zero expansion.
 
OK, I have some issues with that... they're shooting through bone simulant plates and INTO ballistic gelatin?

Of course it's going to be a fail. Their testing methodology and their results are, as far as I'm concerned, worthless because the entire test is based on a set of flawed premises.

The reason ballistic gelatin was developed, and has NEVER been used with bones that have been cast in place, is because it approximates the average mean density of ALL tissue in the body combined.

That's why it's used, and that's why it has shown great fidelity with the results from bullets that have been recovered in actual shootings.

You start casing bones into it, you start putting bone simulant plates in front of it, and you mess up that average mean density and the results you get are very likely going to be both wildly skewed AND largely worthless.

If the Lobster People rise and start walking the earth, then I think we might have a valid reason for testing bullets that expand on an exoskeleton.

But until that happens? No.
 
"Of course it's going to be a fail."

The DPX did not "fail." If you read the detailed article, it makes sense. The anatomical illustration and discussion demonstrate that the bullet will often hit bone. Further, your point about putting something in front of the ballistic gelatin makes no sense. It is done by FBI and others as there are barriers externally as well as internally. Brassfetcher does all the above, bare, cloth, bone "simulant." Makes sense to me. Some, FBI included , I believe, add drywall, sheet metal, glass, and plywood. Regardless, the vaunted 135 +P Gold Dot leaves much to be desired in my opinion, as even in bare gelatin it fails minimum penetration standards. It failed with denim barrier in the link above. So like a broken record, I say use the Corbon DPX 110 +P if you want expansion in a short barrel .38 Special. In testing it stands above all others. As for me, I'll take some hard cast lead and a meplat and two feet of penetration from a standard pressure .38 Special.
 
Mike: I understand your reasoning, but I disagree with the testing methodology. If a bullet hits nothing but soft tissue, the gel is a great simulation. But it doesn't show what the bullet will do after striking tissue-enveloped bone. A better test would be to have a bone simulation of rib-like thickness set at a depth in the gel to simulate human upper torso. (If you want to get elaborate, look at the gel torsos on DEADLIEST WARRIOR.) Test results in that medium would be far more informative.
 
Jmortimer... that test of the Gold Dot .38+P from Brassfetcher was into 20% ordinance gel, not 10%. So 8.8 inches works out to be a very good penetration depth. See the comments under that video.

On another note, this thread is very interesting. Very curious to see how the Remington 125+P Golden Saber does in .38 in colder temps.
 
"... that test of the Gold Dot .38+P from Brassfetcher was into 20% ordinance gel, not 10%."

No, video is 20% and the 8.5" penetration was in "bare" 10% - look at the chart.

Here, specifically, quote from link above:

"The ammunition was fired from a Smith and Wesson 642 handgun, through a bone simulant plate
backed by 10% ballistic gelatin blocks. Of the six brands tested, all six of the ammunition types failed to
expand in the bone plate/gelatin target. The only hollowpoints that featured partial expansion was the CorBon 110gr DPX, where on 2/3 of the shots segments of the cavity peeled backwards and the Hornady 110gr
FTX where 1/3 bullets partially expanded."
 
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