Gel test: .357 Underwood 158 gr XTP from revolver and carbine & 10mm 125 gr frangible

A

Andrew Wiggin

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.357 mag from revolver and carbine video link

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357 mag Underwood 158 gr XTP fired first from 18.5" Marlin 1894C carbine and then from 4" Ruger GP-100 revolver through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 579.4 fps, 3.2"

Revolver data:

Impact velocity: 1,490 fps
Penetration: 14.1"
Retained weight: 141.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.704"
Min Expansion: 0.579"

Carbine data:

Impact velocity: 1,984 fps
Penetration: 10.3"
Retained weight: 101.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.828"
Min expansion: 0.653"



10mm 125 gr frangible video link

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10mm Crossfire 125 gr Sinterfire Frangible fired from 4.5" EAA Wtiness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 579.4 fps, 3.2"

Impact velocity: 1,700 fps (approximate)
Penetration: 9.5", 9.2"
Retained weight: 19.0 gr, 16.9 gr
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A

As you can see in the photos, two pieces made it farther than the others and those are represented in the figures above. The piece found at 9.5" measured 0.397" x 0.201" and the piece found at 9.2" measured 0.395" x 0.222". The chronograph produced an erroneous reading of 651 fps, probably due to the denim landing over the sensors. YouTube poster Intercooler2 has verified that the advertised velocity is correct so the impact velocity should be about 1,700 fps.
 
The .357 mag results underscore the fact that faster is not always better. The XTP is obviously not designed to be driven at 1,900+ fps and doing so causes over expansion and fragmentation.
 
You're right, of course but I didn't expect as much velocity. I should have known that Underwood loads those things to the bleeding edge of SAAMI. The reduced penetration is not surprising but I have to admit I was a little surprised by the fragmentation and by how much the penetration was reduced. The XTP is a very tough bullet.
 
I think he is just testing the frangible 10mm...not recommending it. He gel tests a lot of cartridges, some mainstream, some offbeat. some perform well, others not.

Andrew, thank you for going to the effort of testing all these cartridges and posting the results here. People think testing is easy and quick. It is not easy, and it is not quick.
 
btmj, that's right and thank you.. I'm not recommending the load, just reporting my results. It did not meet penetration standards and would not be suitable for defense.
 
I was going to use the xtp for a load in my carbine I think 1600 will be plenty.
Id have no use for a load like that.
 
thank for taking the time and $$ to make your vids, i love jelly tests, i know that are not to be seen as indicative of how bullet performs in SD situations, but it still give us a standard to help measure the behaviour of a bullet, thanks again
 
I have shot some hot loaded 357 magnum rounds with my marlin and gotten even less penetration than that.

The 110 grain bullets literally blow apart in a single water jug when pushed to nearly 2200 FPS. I think if you where worried about home defense with others in your home and concerned about over penetration this load would be a good bet. It basically becomes a fragmenting bullet at these speeds. The #9 Hornady reloading manual states that the bullets where designed for 900-1400 FPS so its no wonder that 2200 (give or take) blows them up.
 
Thank you for looking, skizzums, it's my pleasure. On the topic of the relevance of gelatin, it actually is fairly predictive of performance in real tissue. Now, my own tests are not professional and although I strive to ensure accuracy and they are roughly consistent with professional tests, I simply don't have the ability to perform my own tests exactly the way professional labs do it. That said, I believe them to be more accurate than tests performed using wet pack, Simtest, Cleargel, wax, clay, water, or other media.

Gelatin is remarkably similar to actual flesh but not exactly the same. Of course, actual flesh isn't exactly the same as actual flesh. That is one body varies from another in muscle mass, fat, clothing, etc. Bullet placement also has a significant effect on performance, especially in regard to striking bone. For that reason, even comparing the results from one pig carcass to another would introduce uncontrolled variables, which is why professional ballisticians rely on gelatin, not cadavers, pig carcasses, or OIS studies.

"The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved
shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy
results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had
collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets
fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both
human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based
ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting
incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly
conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of
projectiles in actual shooting incidents." - Dr. Roberts



"The test of the wound profiles validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue
interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body
traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the
tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the
projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its
overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots
traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close
approximation to the wound profiles.

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw
patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and
reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency a good reason was found and when the
exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a
small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a
valid tissue simulant." - Dr. Fackler
Click to expand...
 
Deja vu, I wouldn't rely on a 110 gr expanding bullet at normal revolver velocity for defense, let alone from a rifle. 12" is the minimum required for defense.
 
Thanks so much for the share. The bone factor is a big one and good note. All too many HP's fail to expand through bone due to clogged tips.

The .357 mag results underscore the fact that faster is not always better. The XTP is obviously not designed to be driven at 1,900+ fps and doing so causes over expansion and fragmentation.
Click to expand...
Good observation! controlling expansion and insuring expansion through clothing, bone and small barriers is a tricky thing. Bullet technology has made some good advancements in the last few years with anti-clog tips and the EFMJ.

www.brassfecther.com has done some nice testing and proven expansion issues but I would like to see some rounds they failed to include in their testing. I know there is no perfect design in defense ammunition but there are some nice improvements if you research a little. Also their data on the skeletal structure and how it protects the vitals is very noteworthy.

I haven't done any testing in a long time and I would love to get in to it on a limited scale again. I never used Gel however, just pigs that met a fate that made them unsafe for consumption. I always got good results from the .357 over non magnum calibers. Anyway, have fun, thanks again and share more if you can!
 
The .357 mag results underscore the fact that faster is not always better. The XTP is obviously not designed to be driven at 1,900+ fps and doing so causes over expansion and fragmentation.
Click to expand...

The bullet in that video is the Hornady 158gr XTP-HP...It was not designed for those velocities...That round is a designed for a handgun...

For carbine velocities Hornady designed the 158gr XTP-FP...According to the specs, it is rated for 1800fps...

The XTP-HP is max rated at 1400, whereas the XTP-FP is rated for 1400 up...

My Contender in .357 Herrett loved the FP...The deer didn't...
 
Sadly, the XTP-FP 158gr is one of the bullets that Hornady put on hiatus till they get 'caught up' from the panic...

I have maybe a couple dozen unloaded, and half a box of loaded rounds...

Sold the Contender and all barrels years ago, so all I have are the few .357 Mag rounds I mentioned...
 
With any luck I might find some old stock... maybe. I've got a lot of stuff to keep me busy and I'm sure they'll get back to making other bullets eventually.
 
I seriously thought about filling my XTP home brews with some sort of tough silicone, since that's how development of the FTX got started. Wish I had some gelatin to see what would happen with a 230gr through heavy clothing.
 
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